Discussion:
sandpiper antennas
(too old to reply)
2m0-sil
2011-06-19 13:27:40 UTC
Permalink
hello,
would like to know if anyone on the group owns one of the sandpiper
range of antennas.
im looking for views on performance, build quility etc.
thanks--john.
alex sutton
2011-06-19 14:58:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2m0-sil
hello,
would like to know if anyone on the group owns one of the sandpiper
range of antennas.
im looking for views on performance, build quility etc.
thanks--john.
Why not buy a new brain the one you have
is filled with silly ideas jack ass the horrible
podgy podgy
2011-06-19 15:27:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by alex sutton
Post by 2m0-sil
hello,
would like to know if anyone on the group owns one of the sandpiper
range of antennas.
im looking for views on performance, build quility etc.
thanks--john.
Why not buy a new brain the one you have
is filled with silly ideas jack ass the horrible
Come back to CB radio john it's a real man's band
for little boys like you with deluded ides and call
yourself a radio amateur
podgy podgy
2011-06-19 15:30:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by alex sutton
Post by 2m0-sil
hello,
would like to know if anyone on the group owns one of the sandpiper
range of antennas.
im looking for views on performance, build quility etc.
thanks--john.
Why not buy a new brain the one you have
is filled with silly ideas jack ass the horrible
Get lost john jack ass connolly dickhead
podgy podgy
2011-06-19 15:42:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by podgy podgy
Post by alex sutton
Post by 2m0-sil
hello,
would like to know if anyone on the group owns one of the sandpiper
range of antennas.
im looking for views on performance, build quility etc.
thanks--john.
Why not buy a new brain the one you have
is filled with silly ideas jack ass the horrible
Get lost john jack ass connolly dickhead
Vote Here is john connolly a jack ass
podgy podgy
2011-06-19 15:36:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by podgy podgy
Post by alex sutton
Post by 2m0-sil
hello,
would like to know if anyone on the group owns one of the sandpiper
range of antennas.
im looking for views on performance, build quility etc.
thanks--john.
Why not buy a new brain the one you have
is filled with silly ideas jack ass the horrible
Get lost john jack ass connolly dickhead
SHOULD JOHN CONNOLLY 2M0SIL BE SECTIONED UNDER THE MENTAL HEALTH ACT

VOTE HERE
Chronos
2011-06-19 15:59:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2m0-sil
hello,
would like to know if anyone on the group owns one of the sandpiper
range of antennas.
V9 from about six years ago.
Post by 2m0-sil
im looking for views on performance, build quility etc.
Performance is about what you'd expect from a ground-mounted, centre
loaded vertical; not brilliant, but far, far better than the dummy-
load-with-microwatt-bleedoff types. Build quality is generally good,
and has improved in the last couple of years (I had to drill and re-
tap most of the elements on the V9 due to me being cack-handed with SS
screws into tapped aluminium ferrules but this is no longer a problem
as I believe they have changed the ferrules to SS). I also had to
reconnect the 80m element's coil on the inboard end as it had come
adrift. However, in mitigation, the weather up here is not exactly
what you'd call calm and it did get some hammer that winter.

They're a good compromise for small yards. You *do* need a bloody good
ground to get the best out of them, so don't think for one second that
you're going to avoid digging, laying radials/mats and driving earth
rods. Since these are loaded with a low impedance feedpoint, earth
losses affect greatly the overall performance. Be prepared to bugger
about with the V9 to tune it if you don't have a dip meter or antenna
analyser. You'll get to the stage where you think it'll never tune and
feel like giving up, but persevere as they really do tune to spec.

Also watch the SO-239 sockets; they're weatherproof, but the bracket
is only held by one measly little machine screw and corrosion builds
up between the socket and the clamp plate causing grounding problems.
If it ever stops performing, check this first. Ideally, give the area
around the SO239 bracket a good seeing-to with silicone grease (NOT
WD-40) on installation and at regular periods of maintenance.

In their favour is that Chris delivers excellent after-sales service.
He has always replied to e-mails, usually the same day. They are the
manufacturer, thus spares can be had at reasonable prices and they're
in the UK. I can't fault the service at all.

HTH.
--
Radio glossary #27
RSGB: The Random Selection of Good Buddies who couldn't find their own
arses with a map and talk-in.
2m0-sil
2011-06-19 20:37:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chronos
Post by 2m0-sil
hello,
would like to know if anyone on the group owns one of the sandpiper
range of antennas.
V9 from about six years ago.
Post by 2m0-sil
im looking for views on performance, build quility etc.
Performance is about what you'd expect from a ground-mounted, centre
loaded vertical; not brilliant, but far, far better than the dummy-
load-with-microwatt-bleedoff types. Build quality is generally good,
and has improved in the last couple of years (I had to drill and re-
tap most of the elements on the V9 due to me being cack-handed with SS
screws into tapped aluminium ferrules but this is no longer a problem
as I believe they have changed the ferrules to SS). I also had to
reconnect the 80m element's coil on the inboard end as it had come
adrift. However, in mitigation, the weather up here is not exactly
what you'd call calm and it did get some hammer that winter.
They're a good compromise for small yards. You *do* need a bloody good
ground to get the best out of them, so don't think for one second that
you're going to avoid digging, laying radials/mats and driving earth
rods. Since these are loaded with a low impedance feedpoint, earth
losses affect greatly the overall performance. Be prepared to bugger
about with the V9 to tune it if you don't have a dip meter or antenna
analyser. You'll get to the stage where you think it'll never tune and
feel like giving up, but persevere as they really do tune to spec.
Also watch the SO-239 sockets; they're weatherproof, but the bracket
is only held by one measly little machine screw and corrosion builds
up between the socket and the clamp plate causing grounding problems.
If it ever stops performing, check this first. Ideally, give the area
around the SO239 bracket a good seeing-to with silicone grease (NOT
WD-40) on installation and at regular periods of maintenance.
In their favour is that Chris delivers excellent after-sales service.
He has always replied to e-mails, usually the same day. They are the
manufacturer, thus spares can be had at reasonable prices and they're
in the UK. I can't fault the service at all.
HTH.
--
Radio glossary #27
RSGB: The Random Selection of Good Buddies who couldn't find their own
arses with a map and talk-in.
thanks for taking the time to reply.
seems it has a few pros and cons this antenna so will have to have a
good think about it.
Chronos
2011-06-20 09:55:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2m0-sil
thanks for taking the time to reply.
seems it has a few pros and cons this antenna so will have to have a
good think about it.
John, all multi-band compact aerials are a compromise. For example,
those "hybrid quad" compact beams do not live up to their price tag,
simply because they're trying to bend the rules. It's the same with
these - they'll get you QRV, but they're never going to allow you to
mix it with the big guns.

Tell us what your bands of interest are and your available space and
someone with a little more aerial-fu than me may be able to suggest
something that isn't such a compromise that maximises your potential.
With a little planning, you'll be able to tailor your setup to your
interests, which will make your time spent on the radio more
worthwhile. Blindly trying commercial aerials can be very frustrating,
not to mention being expensive, and there's simply no need. Aerials
are simple and cheap to make and it's very satisfying to use something
you created rather than being tied down by compromises someone else
decided for you, not to mention having to pay for the privilege.

Also remember the simpler an aerial is, the less the losses. Traps,
loading coils, every single joint all contribute to RL (resistive
losses) which, on an aerial with a low radiation resistance such as a
ground fed quarter wave (or something pretending to be one), makes a
significant impact on your radiated signal. This is why balanced
aerials such as doublets and dipoles are popular - they minimise RL,
particularly ground resistance, are simple to construct and don't cost
the earth.

Steve Webb's "CobWebb" is a good example of lateral thinking with
simple balanced aerials. It's basically a nest of dipoles. The shape
gives you an omnidirectional radiation pattern and the ends of the
elements being in close proximity minimises pickup of electrical noise
like a loop. Each square is a full sized double-gamma matched dipole
in its own right so RL is kept low, efficiency is preserved and the
dipoles are a good match to 50 Ohms.

Have a think and get back to us. We're always willing to answer
questions like this.
--
Radio glossary #48
Radio ham: Cured pork warmed in the microwave.
Spike
2011-06-20 10:19:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chronos
Post by 2m0-sil
thanks for taking the time to reply.
seems it has a few pros and cons this antenna so will have to have a
good think about it.
John, all multi-band compact aerials are a compromise.
Tell us what your bands of interest are and your available space and
someone with a little more aerial-fu than me may be able to suggest
something that isn't such a compromise that maximises your potential.
Have a think and get back to us. We're always willing to answer
questions like this.
Matt, I've had a big snip of the very cogent points you made, and I
urge the PP to take them to heart.

Basically, in order to give the PP some options, it would really be
helpful of we knew what size of ground he had available, what sort of
ground it is (clay, rock, agricultural land, etc), what the
surroundings are like (urban, country, rich in trees), but more
importantly, what the PP wants to achieve.

It might be that an 'all-bands' solution isn't on the cards - remember
all those postings from a few years ago about newcomers being
disappointed with the performance of their G5RV, expecting it do do
everything? Most of them never realised that on the higher bands there
were deep nulls in the radiation pattern - and if these fall in your
target area, you're doomed.

Too many Amateurs spend £thousands on a rig, but the most important
part of the station is the aerial - and that in turn is affected by
location and ground characteristics as well as the people that live
close by.

I hope the PP realises that this is a learning curve, but that the
'experimentation' part of the Amateur licence.

PS: I'm not claiming to be an expert on aerials, but one does see the
same pitfalls being suffered time and again by the unwary.

PPS: I have a feeling that PP is in my kill file, so I might not see
any response by him.
--
Spike
Chronos
2011-06-20 10:54:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spike
Matt, I've had a big snip of the very cogent points you made, and I
urge the PP to take them to heart.
It was a bit long, wasn't it? ;o)
Post by Spike
Basically, in order to give the PP some options, it would really be
helpful of we knew what size of ground he had available, what sort
of ground it is (clay, rock, agricultural land, etc), what the
surroundings are like (urban, country, rich in trees), but more
importantly, what the PP wants to achieve.
Yes, I forgot to mention that important detail. Ground resistance
dictates both the type and height required, which is an essential
consideration.
Post by Spike
It might be that an 'all-bands' solution isn't on the cards -
remember all those postings from a few years ago about newcomers
being disappointed with the performance of their G5RV, expecting it
do do everything? Most of them never realised that on the higher
bands there were deep nulls in the radiation pattern - and if these
fall in your target area, you're doomed.
The other thing the newcomer needs to be aware of is snake oil.
There's a lot of it about in aerials, probably because it is the least
understood (or most neglected) subject in amateur radio. It's easy to
make astonishing claims when your target market knows next to nothing
about what you're claiming.
Post by Spike
Too many Amateurs spend £thousands on a rig, but the most important
part of the station is the aerial - and that in turn is affected by
location and ground characteristics as well as the people that live
close by.
That's the thing that I don't understand, too. "We can just use more
power" is a common phrase, but no mention of SNR, receive performance
and efficiency. You can't work what you can't hear, after all.

Speaking of which, with this vertical, a null steerer is almost
essential. With the voltage node of the aerial being open, it tends to
pick up every last bit of noise, from plasma TVs to misbehaving
SMPSUs. The X-Phase [1] I built a while ago has become indispensable,
especially on top band. Last night I had and S9 level of noise with
the typical "tractor idling" sound of a plasma with the steerer off.
With it on, the background noise was S3 with all stations on the
1942kc/s net coming up out of the noise floor nicely. The moral here
is there's more than one way to achieve what you want, i.e. good
ground wave performance with low noise on receive that would normally
need two sperarate aerials for transmit and receive. This is a rural
location, so how bad it is for an urban dweller I dread to think.
Post by Spike
I hope the PP realises that this is a learning curve, but that the
'experimentation' part of the Amateur licence.
Just so.
Post by Spike
PS: I'm not claiming to be an expert on aerials, but one does see
the same pitfalls being suffered time and again by the unwary.
Well, I have first-hand experience of your advice and it works well.
Your modesty is becoming, but you really do have an insight into these
matters that can be invaluable.
Post by Spike
PPS: I have a feeling that PP is in my kill file, so I might not see
any response by him.
He is in mine too, but everyone gets a second chance if they're
willing to play the game. This subject is exactly what this group
needs as a break from the drivel.

[1] The noise aerial is simply a wire stapled to the skirting board in
the shack. It follows the ring main's route, so it tends to get
everything on the same phase as the three closest neighbours without
picking up wanted signals which works well for plasmas, SMPSUs and
Comtrends.
--
Radio glossary #30
RadCom: Otherwise known as the Waters and Stanton catalogue.
2m0-sil
2011-06-20 11:00:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chronos
Post by Spike
Matt, I've had a big snip of the very cogent points you made, and I
urge the PP to take them to heart.
It was a bit long, wasn't it? ;o)
Post by Spike
Basically, in order to give the PP some options, it would really be
helpful of we knew what size of ground he had available, what sort
of ground it is (clay, rock, agricultural land, etc), what the
surroundings are like (urban, country, rich in trees), but more
importantly, what the PP wants to achieve.
Yes, I forgot to mention that important detail. Ground resistance
dictates both the type and height required, which is an essential
consideration.
Post by Spike
It might be that an 'all-bands' solution isn't on the cards -
remember all those postings from a few years ago about newcomers
being disappointed with the performance of their G5RV, expecting it
do do everything? Most of them never realised that on the higher
bands there were deep nulls in the radiation pattern - and if these
fall in your target area, you're doomed.
The other thing the newcomer needs to be aware of is snake oil.
There's a lot of it about in aerials, probably because it is the least
understood (or most neglected) subject in amateur radio. It's easy to
make astonishing claims when your target market knows next to nothing
about what you're claiming.
Post by Spike
Too many Amateurs spend £thousands on a rig, but the most important
part of the station is the aerial - and that in turn is affected by
location and ground characteristics as well as the people that live
close by.
That's the thing that I don't understand, too. "We can just use more
power" is a common phrase, but no mention of SNR, receive performance
and efficiency. You can't work what you can't hear, after all.
Speaking of which, with this vertical, a null steerer is almost
essential. With the voltage node of the aerial being open, it tends to
pick up every last bit of noise, from plasma TVs to misbehaving
SMPSUs. The X-Phase [1] I built a while ago has become indispensable,
especially on top band. Last night I had and S9 level of noise with
the typical "tractor idling" sound of a plasma with the steerer off.
With it on, the background noise was S3 with all stations on the
1942kc/s net coming up out of the noise floor nicely. The moral here
is there's more than one way to achieve what you want, i.e. good
ground wave performance with low noise on receive that would normally
need two sperarate aerials for transmit and receive. This is a rural
location, so how bad it is for an urban dweller I dread to think.
Post by Spike
I hope the PP realises that this is a learning curve, but that the
'experimentation' part of the Amateur licence.
Just so.
Post by Spike
PS: I'm not claiming to be an expert on aerials, but one does see
the same pitfalls being suffered time and again by the unwary.
Well, I have first-hand experience of your advice and it works well.
Your modesty is becoming, but you really do have an insight into these
matters that can be invaluable.
Post by Spike
PPS: I have a feeling that PP is in my kill file, so I might not see
any response by him.
He is in mine too, but everyone gets a second chance if they're
willing to play the game. This subject is exactly what this group
needs as a break from the drivel.
[1] The noise aerial is simply a wire stapled to the skirting board in
the shack. It follows the ring main's route, so it tends to get
everything on the same phase as the three closest neighbours without
picking up wanted signals which works well for plasmas, SMPSUs and
Comtrends.
--
Radio glossary #30
RadCom: Otherwise known as the Waters and Stanton catalogue.
yes noise is a common problem with my setup--it only affects certain
bands though.
Chronos
2011-06-20 16:00:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2m0-sil
yes noise is a common problem with my setup--it only affects certain
bands though.
More than likely the lower bands more than 17-10m. It's one of the
drawbacks of any monopole setup. Indeed, a half wave dipole will pick
up noise just because of where its high impedance points end up (the
ends) which you really can't do much about. The offset centre fed
dipole (commonly called a Windom but isn't) can be useful in such
situations on it's higher bands (the high impedance points are still
at the ends on its fundamental) and likely will give you more coverage
as a serendipitous aside but watch those radiation patterns Spike
warned us about. Most will require you to do some form of impedance
transformation. For example:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/19452334/OCFDipole-40m-to-10M

A 4:1 transformer is trivial to construct. Just run about 12-15 turns
bifillar on a suitable toroid (a T130-6 will be fine for up to 300W on
40-10m) should do the job. They have used a ferrite rod. A toroid
would be slightly better if you're supporting the feedpoint from
something metallic as toroids tend to contain the magnetic field
within the torus, hence tend not to be affected by nearby metallic
structures. No need for a static bleed on these as the transformer
provides a DC path to ground.

Other solutions here can be to change the RX aerial for something like
a loop which is less sensitive to local electrical noise or build a
nuller and use a noise aerial.
--
Radio glossary #15
Valve: A device which stops spiders taking up residence in your PA
compartment. Chinese types tend to make you wish they would as they
have as many legs and would be more use.
Chronos
2011-06-20 16:04:28 UTC
Permalink
it's
D'oh! "its." Ruddy feral apostrophes...
--
Radio glossary #15
Valve: A device which stops spiders taking up residence in your PA
compartment. Chinese types tend to make you wish they would as they
have as many legs and would be more use.
2m0-sil
2011-06-20 21:05:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chronos
Post by 2m0-sil
yes noise is a common problem with my setup--it only affects certain
bands though.
More than likely the lower bands more than 17-10m. It's one of the
drawbacks of any monopole setup. Indeed, a half wave dipole will pick
up noise just because of where its high impedance points end up (the
ends) which you really can't do much about. The offset centre fed
dipole (commonly called a Windom but isn't) can be useful in such
situations on it's higher bands (the high impedance points are still
at the ends on its fundamental) and likely will give you more coverage
as a serendipitous aside but watch those radiation patterns Spike
warned us about. Most will require you to do some form of impedance
http://www.scribd.com/doc/19452334/OCFDipole-40m-to-10M
A 4:1 transformer is trivial to construct. Just run about 12-15 turns
bifillar on a suitable toroid (a T130-6 will be fine for up to 300W on
40-10m) should do the job. They have used a ferrite rod. A toroid
would be slightly better if you're supporting the feedpoint from
something metallic as toroids tend to contain the magnetic field
within the torus, hence tend not to be affected by nearby metallic
structures. No need for a static bleed on these as the transformer
provides a DC path to ground.
Other solutions here can be to change the RX aerial for something like
a loop which is less sensitive to local electrical noise or build a
nuller and use a noise aerial.
--
Radio glossary #15
Valve: A device which stops spiders taking up residence in your PA
compartment. Chinese types tend to make you wish they would as they
have as many legs and would be more use.
thanks to all who replied.
the src x80 is basically a modified 5/8 wave cb silver-rod with a 9-1
unun at the bottom.
an 8 turn choke was added in the coax when the antenna was installed.
as for the neighbours tv--i simply wont deal with anyone who comes to
my door complaining with an attitude.
they simply get the number for ofcom and a copy of my licence and
thats it.
i was blamed for my next doors tv reception going off even though the
radio was off at the time.
when the neighbour found out that workmen had dug through the
communial ariel--by me i may add as i went looking for the problem--no
apology was forthcoming.
so i agree with brian if they see an antenna on your property you must
be to blame.
gareth
2011-06-21 07:16:57 UTC
Permalink
"2m0-sil" <***@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:355d6f8e-26b1-44e2-b6b6-***@j25g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
# the src x80 is basically a modified 5/8 wave cb silver-rod

Says it all, really.
MM6-JBN
2011-06-21 08:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by gareth
# the src x80 is basically a modified 5/8 wave cb silver-rod
Says it all, really.
Why dont you explaine what you think it says gareth .
Maybe you see think wrong or just different . Why not
explain more clearly. . . .
gareth
2011-06-21 08:27:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by gareth
# the src x80 is basically a modified 5/8 wave cb silver-rod
Says it all, really.
# Why dont you explaine what you think it says gareth .
# Maybe you see think wrong or just different . Why not
# explain more clearly. . . .

The meaning is clear to all those who are not dyed-in-the-wool CBers.
2m0-sil
2011-06-21 10:13:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by gareth
# the src x80 is basically a modified 5/8 wave cb silver-rod
Says it all, really.
yes it does gareth--just imagine a company selling modified cb
antennas and passing them off as multi-band amateur antennas--thats
new how shocking.
this reply is for chronos anyway.
i totally agree with you regarding the spirit of amateur radio and i
did my best to resolve the problem including moving the antenna from
the rear to the front of the building and running qrp for a long time
but the neighbours were obstructive and abusive so i printed off
contact details for ofcom and a copy of my licence.
i think the thought of paying ofcom £50 to resolve a problem that i
wasnt creating solved the issue.
all a can say is dont buy cheap branded lcd tvs.
but getting back to it ive really enjoyed the feedback on this topic
and even though some of the advice was already in place regarding the
antenna it was welcome anyway it may even have helped some other
newcomer with similar problems.
i will wait till the weather clears up and try some of the things
mentioned.
thanks again.
Chronos
2011-06-21 11:00:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2m0-sil
i totally agree with you regarding the spirit of amateur radio and i
did my best to resolve the problem including moving the antenna from
the rear to the front of the building and running qrp for a long
time but the neighbours were obstructive and abusive so i printed
off contact details for ofcom and a copy of my licence.
Ah, you reached the "point of no return" that Brian mentioned. Fair
enough. Sometimes people can be so confrontational that they can't be
helped. I should count myself lucky that I have never had this
situation arise.
Post by 2m0-sil
i think the thought of paying ofcom £50 to resolve a problem that i
wasnt creating solved the issue.
Undoubtedly.
Post by 2m0-sil
all a can say is dont buy cheap branded lcd tvs.
Oh $DEITY, please don't tell me it was a Bush from Argos? Save a few
pence by not fitting all the EMC stuff...
Post by 2m0-sil
but getting back to it ive really enjoyed the feedback on this topic
and even though some of the advice was already in place regarding
the antenna it was welcome anyway it may even have helped some other
newcomer with similar problems.
i will wait till the weather clears up and try some of the things
mentioned.
thanks again.
You're quite welcome. As for that aerial, they're pretty obviously a
modified "silver rod" type GP. Another little secret between you, me
and this very private group is that the un-un can be thrown together
for about a fiver with box. It's a T130-2 with 9 turns trifillar.

http://www.m0ukd.com/Magnetic_Long_Wire_UnUn/index.php

It's a basic 9:1 transformer. I must have made tens of them. Beware of
snake oil; if it seems too good to be true, it most likely is.
Spotting is comes with experience ;o)

BTW, folks, I remember a few years back a monopole made of 300R twin
that went by the name of something like G2CV (well, a Gn+2 anyway, I'm
probably thinking of that godawful French car). Anyone remember it? It
had a rather convoluted toroid based balun IIRC and it was one of Pat
Hawker's "revisited" articles. I threw one together but never got
around to putting it up.
--
Radio glossary #53
Battery: Commonly phrased with "assault", this is usually the result
of the annual repeater group get-together.
2m0-sil
2011-06-21 12:30:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chronos
Post by 2m0-sil
i totally agree with you regarding the spirit of amateur radio and i
did my best to resolve the problem including moving the antenna from
the rear to the front of the building and running qrp for a long
time but the neighbours were obstructive and abusive so i printed
off contact details for ofcom and a copy of my licence.
Ah, you reached the "point of no return" that Brian mentioned. Fair
enough. Sometimes people can be so confrontational that they can't be
helped. I should count myself lucky that I have never had this
situation arise.
Post by 2m0-sil
i think the thought of paying ofcom £50 to resolve a problem that i
wasnt creating solved the issue.
Undoubtedly.
Post by 2m0-sil
all a can say is dont buy cheap branded lcd tvs.
Oh $DEITY, please don't tell me it was a Bush from Argos? Save a few
pence by not fitting all the EMC stuff...
Post by 2m0-sil
but getting back to it ive really enjoyed the feedback on this topic
and even though some of the advice was already in place regarding
the antenna it was welcome anyway it may even have helped some other
newcomer with similar problems.
i will wait till the weather clears up and try some of the things
mentioned.
thanks again.
You're quite welcome. As for that aerial, they're pretty obviously a
modified "silver rod" type GP. Another little secret between you, me
and this very private group is that the un-un can be thrown together
for about a fiver with box. It's a T130-2 with 9 turns trifillar.
http://www.m0ukd.com/Magnetic_Long_Wire_UnUn/index.php
It's a basic 9:1 transformer. I must have made tens of them. Beware of
snake oil; if it seems too good to be true, it most likely is.
Spotting is comes with experience ;o)
BTW, folks, I remember a few years back a monopole made of 300R twin
that went by the name of something like G2CV (well, a Gn+2 anyway, I'm
probably thinking of that godawful French car). Anyone remember it? It
had a rather convoluted toroid based balun IIRC and it was one of Pat
Hawker's "revisited" articles. I threw one together but never got
around to putting it up.
--
Radio glossary #53
Battery: Commonly phrased with "assault", this is usually the result
of the annual repeater group get-together.
the antenna actually works well 20 through 10 its tricky to tune on 40
but does tune eventually.
as for 80--it recieves well.
i cant fault the company but it should have been advertised as a 40-10
antenna.
MM6-JBN
2011-06-21 12:38:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chronos
Post by 2m0-sil
i totally agree with you regarding the spirit of amateur radio and i
did my best to resolve the problem including moving the antenna from
the rear to the front of the building and running qrp for a long
time but the neighbours were obstructive and abusive so i printed
off contact details for ofcom and a copy of my licence.
Ah, you reached the "point of no return" that Brian mentioned. Fair
enough. Sometimes people can be so confrontational that they can't be
helped. I should count myself lucky that I have never had this
situation arise.
Post by 2m0-sil
i think the thought of paying ofcom £50 to resolve a problem that i
wasnt creating solved the issue.
Undoubtedly.
Post by 2m0-sil
all a can say is dont buy cheap branded lcd tvs.
Oh $DEITY, please don't tell me it was a Bush from Argos? Save a few
pence by not fitting all the EMC stuff...
Post by 2m0-sil
but getting back to it ive really enjoyed the feedback on this topic
and even though some of the advice was already in place regarding
the antenna it was welcome anyway it may even have helped some other
newcomer with similar problems.
i will wait till the weather clears up and try some of the things
mentioned.
thanks again.
You're quite welcome. As for that aerial, they're pretty obviously a
modified "silver rod" type GP. Another little secret between you, me
and this very private group is that the un-un can be thrown together
for about a fiver with box. It's a T130-2 with 9 turns trifillar.
http://www.m0ukd.com/Magnetic_Long_Wire_UnUn/index.php
It's a basic 9:1 transformer. I must have made tens of them. Beware of
snake oil; if it seems too good to be true, it most likely is.
Spotting is comes with experience ;o)
BTW, folks, I remember a few years back a monopole made of 300R twin
that went by the name of something like G2CV (well, a Gn+2 anyway, I'm
probably thinking of that godawful French car). Anyone remember it? It
had a rather convoluted toroid based balun IIRC and it was one of Pat
Hawker's "revisited" articles. I threw one together but never got
around to putting it up.
--
Radio glossary #53
Battery: Commonly phrased with "assault", this is usually the result
of the annual repeater group get-together.
Hb9cv . Two elle beam . What can be made for 2m/6m/10m/
15m or 20m . . . ? A have seen articals on this and many hams claimin
it as their own . . . .
Chronos
2011-06-21 17:19:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by MM6-JBN
Hb9cv . Two elle beam . What can be made for 2m/6m/10m/
15m or 20m . . . ? A have seen articals on this and many hams
claimin it as their own . . . .
No, an HB9CV is a phased two element endfire array of which I have
built a few examples for different bands. This was a non-resonant
monopole. It's more out of curiousity than anything else because at
the time of reading the article I didn't understand what that balun
was doing. Perhaps looking at it again I'll be able to work it out.

I'll just have to bite the bullet and buy a copy of the Technical
Topics Scrapbook and CD.
--
Radio glossary #26
Friend: Anyone who will talk to you for half an hour on 80m. Anyone
who stays the distance longer than that is called a Masochist.
gareth
2011-06-21 11:42:40 UTC
Permalink
"2m0-sil" <***@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:dcab7045-946f-4395-a0e3-***@v5g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
# ... the neighbours were obstructive and abusive ...

Perhaps they follow the example in their turn of their
own neighbour?
Spike
2011-06-20 11:23:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chronos
Post by Spike
Matt, I've had a big snip of the very cogent points you made, and I
urge the PP to take them to heart.
It was a bit long, wasn't it? ;o)
LOL...I wasn't having a pop!
Post by Chronos
Post by Spike
Basically, in order to give the PP some options, it would really be
helpful of we knew what size of ground he had available, what sort
of ground it is (clay, rock, agricultural land, etc), what the
surroundings are like (urban, country, rich in trees), but more
importantly, what the PP wants to achieve.
Yes, I forgot to mention that important detail. Ground resistance
dictates both the type and height required, which is an essential
consideration.
<snip>
Post by Chronos
That's the thing that I don't understand, too. "We can just use more
power" is a common phrase, but no mention of SNR, receive performance
and efficiency. You can't work what you can't hear, after all.
You should have written that last sentence in capitals, it's
fundamental. Getting a station 'engineered or 'designed' to do what
you want could well be based around that as a starting point.
Post by Chronos
Speaking of which, with this vertical, a null steerer is almost
essential. With the voltage node of the aerial being open, it tends to
pick up every last bit of noise, from plasma TVs to misbehaving
SMPSUs. The X-Phase [1] I built a while ago has become indispensable,
especially on top band.
Is that related to a Jones aerial?

I've never built one but am close to doing so, as noise levels creep
ever upwards.
Post by Chronos
Post by Spike
I hope the PP realises that this is a learning curve, but that the
'experimentation' part of the Amateur licence.
Just so.
Post by Spike
PS: I'm not claiming to be an expert on aerials, but one does see
the same pitfalls being suffered time and again by the unwary.
Well, I have first-hand experience of your advice and it works well.
Your modesty is becoming, but you really do have an insight into these
matters that can be invaluable.
That's nice of you to say so, but when I have a punt around on the web
I realise there's people out there that know shedloads more than I
ever will about the topic. What I try to do is balance what is
attainable with some consideration of topics that don't seem to play
as prominent a part as they should - such as the questions posed to
the OP about those factors that will affect his station.

If he's in an urban location, perhaps the first thing he should do is
build a simple noise canceller for one band, and take it from there.
Post by Chronos
Post by Spike
PPS: I have a feeling that PP is in my kill file, so I might not see
any response by him.
He is in mine too, but everyone gets a second chance if they're
willing to play the game. This subject is exactly what this group
needs as a break from the drivel.
Quite so!
Post by Chronos
[1] The noise aerial is simply a wire stapled to the skirting board in
the shack. It follows the ring main's route, so it tends to get
everything on the same phase as the three closest neighbours without
picking up wanted signals which works well for plasmas, SMPSUs and
Comtrends.
Respect.....That's a clever approach, and clearly an effective one.
--
Spike
Chronos
2011-06-20 11:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spike
Is that related to a Jones aerial?
No, it's a German designed null-steerer, along the same lines as the
S.E.M. QRM eliminator, only it doesn't use a pair of tuned circuits to
shift the phase making it a great deal simpler to align. Details here:

http://www.mydarc.de/dh3wl/dk9nl/X-Phase-Dateien/X-Phase.htm

If you look at the WiMo QRM eliminator, it has a suspiciously similar
number of controls and operating procedure...

http://www.wimo.de/cgi-bin/verteiler.pl?url=ezitune_e.html
Post by Spike
I've never built one but am close to doing so, as noise levels creep
ever upwards.
The problems come when you have more than one noise source. So far,
I've managed to get by nulling the worst of them, but as density of
competing noise increases it's going to become very difficult to
mitigate. That's why we need to protect the spectrum from the likes of
Comtrend, even if there are ways around the odd one or two noise
generators, as eventually all of those hacks are going to fail
miserably.
--
Radio glossary #31
Handheld Transceiver: A device for keeping your hands warm in winter.
Chronos
2011-06-20 12:28:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chronos
No, it's a German designed null-steerer
Little low-quality (read: awful) video of it in action on the '101:

http://www.chronos.org.uk/X-Phase.ogg

Note the starting signal meter reading. Over S9 of crap.

Here's the accompanying audio file of the plasma noise getting
squashed:

http://www.chronos.org.uk/X-Phase.mp3

This thing has improved reception dramatically.
--
Radio glossary #1
Wire: A row of point contact diodes in series which may or may not
conduct depending on the stress level of the user.
Ian Jackson
2011-06-20 12:56:57 UTC
Permalink
In message <itnee2$uv4$***@dont-email.me>, Chronos <***@privacy.net>
writes
Post by Chronos
Post by Chronos
No, it's a German designed null-steerer
http://www.chronos.org.uk/X-Phase.ogg
Note the starting signal meter reading. Over S9 of crap.
Here's the accompanying audio file of the plasma noise getting
http://www.chronos.org.uk/X-Phase.mp3
This thing has improved reception dramatically.
With the audio file, to demonstrate its effectiveness, you really need
to turn the AGC off (or turn the RF gain down, and the AF gain up).
--
Ian
Chronos
2011-06-20 13:38:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
writes
Post by Chronos
Post by Chronos
No, it's a German designed null-steerer
http://www.chronos.org.uk/X-Phase.ogg
Note the starting signal meter reading. Over S9 of crap.
Here's the accompanying audio file of the plasma noise getting
http://www.chronos.org.uk/X-Phase.mp3
This thing has improved reception dramatically.
With the audio file, to demonstrate its effectiveness, you really
need to turn the AGC off (or turn the RF gain down, and the AF gain
up).
Couple of off-on cycles with ACG off:

http://www.chronos.org.uk/X-Phase2.mp3

Note that the main aerial gain on the X-Phase is at maximum, so no
wanted signal attenuation.
--
Radio glossary #44
Rotator: Someone who sits for hours twiddling the VFO knob.
Spike
2011-06-20 13:45:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chronos
http://www.chronos.org.uk/X-Phase2.mp3
Note that the main aerial gain on the X-Phase is at maximum, so no
wanted signal attenuation.
Sounds impressive.
--
Spike
2m0-sil
2011-06-20 10:30:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chronos
Post by 2m0-sil
thanks for taking the time to reply.
seems it has a few pros and cons this antenna so will have to have a
good think about it.
John, all multi-band compact aerials are a compromise. For example,
those "hybrid quad" compact beams do not live up to their price tag,
simply because they're trying to bend the rules. It's the same with
these - they'll get you QRV, but they're never going to allow you to
mix it with the big guns.
Tell us what your bands of interest are and your available space and
someone with a little more aerial-fu than me may be able to suggest
something that isn't such a compromise that maximises your potential.
With a little planning, you'll be able to tailor your setup to your
interests, which will make your time spent on the radio more
worthwhile. Blindly trying commercial aerials can be very frustrating,
not to mention being expensive, and there's simply no need. Aerials
are simple and cheap to make and it's very satisfying to use something
you created rather than being tied down by compromises someone else
decided for you, not to mention having to pay for the privilege.
Also remember the simpler an aerial is, the less the losses. Traps,
loading coils, every single joint all contribute to RL (resistive
losses) which, on an aerial with a low radiation resistance such as a
ground fed quarter wave (or something pretending to be one), makes a
significant impact on your radiated signal. This is why balanced
aerials such as doublets and dipoles are popular - they minimise RL,
particularly ground resistance, are simple to construct and don't cost
the earth.
Steve Webb's "CobWebb" is a good example of lateral thinking with
simple balanced aerials. It's basically a nest of dipoles. The shape
gives you an omnidirectional radiation pattern and the ends of the
elements being in close proximity minimises pickup of electrical noise
like a loop. Each square is a full sized double-gamma matched dipole
in its own right so RL is kept low, efficiency is preserved and the
dipoles are a good match to 50 Ohms.
Have a think and get back to us. We're always willing to answer
questions like this.
--
Radio glossary #48
Radio ham: Cured pork warmed in the microwave.
thanks again for the reply,
i will try and explain my situation and this should give you a better
understanding to the type of antenna i need.
my src x80 is situated in the front garden the size of which is around
20 by 14 foot
.i have a useful sized back garden but it is crossed by telephone
cables but the main problem with the back is a neighbours tv that has
very poor immunity.
i have tried wire antennas in the past but they interfere with the
upstairs neighbours tv through a loft mounted tv antenna.
so at this present location it has to be a vertical which i know is a
compromise.
what im looking for is the best compromise i can get.
Colin Watson 10TorbexRdCumnbernauld
2011-06-20 10:33:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2m0-sil
Post by Chronos
Post by 2m0-sil
thanks for taking the time to reply.
seems it has a few pros and cons this antenna so will have to have a
good think about it.
John, all multi-band compact aerials are a compromise. For example,
those "hybrid quad" compact beams do not live up to their price tag,
simply because they're trying to bend the rules. It's the same with
these - they'll get you QRV, but they're never going to allow you to
mix it with the big guns.
Tell us what your bands of interest are and your available space and
someone with a little more aerial-fu than me may be able to suggest
something that isn't such a compromise that maximises your potential.
With a little planning, you'll be able to tailor your setup to your
interests, which will make your time spent on the radio more
worthwhile. Blindly trying commercial aerials can be very frustrating,
not to mention being expensive, and there's simply no need. Aerials
are simple and cheap to make and it's very satisfying to use something
you created rather than being tied down by compromises someone else
decided for you, not to mention having to pay for the privilege.
Also remember the simpler an aerial is, the less the losses. Traps,
loading coils, every single joint all contribute to RL (resistive
losses) which, on an aerial with a low radiation resistance such as a
ground fed quarter wave (or something pretending to be one), makes a
significant impact on your radiated signal. This is why balanced
aerials such as doublets and dipoles are popular - they minimise RL,
particularly ground resistance, are simple to construct and don't cost
the earth.
Steve Webb's "CobWebb" is a good example of lateral thinking with
simple balanced aerials. It's basically a nest of dipoles. The shape
gives you an omnidirectional radiation pattern and the ends of the
elements being in close proximity minimises pickup of electrical noise
like a loop. Each square is a full sized double-gamma matched dipole
in its own right so RL is kept low, efficiency is preserved and the
dipoles are a good match to 50 Ohms.
Have a think and get back to us. We're always willing to answer
questions like this.
--
Radio glossary #48
Radio ham: Cured pork warmed in the microwave.
thanks again for the reply,
i will try and explain my situation and this should give you a better
understanding to the type of antenna i need.
my src x80 is situated in the front garden the size of which is around
20 by 14 foot
.i have a useful sized back garden but it is crossed by telephone
cables but the main problem with the back is a neighbours tv that has
very poor immunity.
i have tried wire antennas in the past but they interfere with the
upstairs neighbours tv through a loft mounted tv antenna.
so at this present location it has to be a vertical which i know is a
compromise.
what im looking for is the best compromise i can get.
500FT OR RG58 AND BIG DUMMY LOAD IN THE LOAFT THAT SHOULD SORT BYOU
OUT MR CONNELLY
Chronos
2011-06-20 11:25:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2m0-sil
i will try and explain my situation and this should give you a
better understanding to the type of antenna i need.
my src x80 is situated in the front garden the size of which is
around 20 by 14 foot
The SRC X80 is just a CB type monopole/GP modified with a 9:1 un-un in
a plastic box at the feedpoint instead of the matching coil. It's a
typical example of what would be, with wire instead of the aluminium
vertical, a SWL's long wire. Again, it'll get you QRV but it's not
even close to efficient on any of the bands.
Post by 2m0-sil
.i have a useful sized back garden but it is crossed by telephone
cables but the main problem with the back is a neighbours tv that
has very poor immunity.
Do you talk to your neighbours? Could you try a braid breaker on their
feeder and a ferrite on the supply cable? When you say poor immunity,
does this manifest itself on the digibox (loss of signal, assuming
you're DSO'd already) or the TV itself? If they're not digital, it may
be worth spending the £20-ish to get them a cheap freeview box, which
may not suffer from the picture quality issues of analogue reception.
Look at it as an investment in your hobby rather than a gift to them.
If they have a digibox, ensure they're using SCART or similar rather
than the UHF modulator output.

With the telephone cables, you're also going to suffer from noise. How
you deal with that depends on a number of factors, not least being
aerial you choose. That is a topic for after your decision on a
reasonably efficient aerial system.
Post by 2m0-sil
i have tried wire antennas in the past but they interfere with the
upstairs neighbours tv through a loft mounted tv antenna.
Bear in mind this may be a feeder radiation/unwanted RF in the
building issue rather than your aerial itself. With balanced aerials
fed with coaxial, you'll need at least a common mode choke to stop
currents on the feeder from causing problems. Since they're upstairs,
you are most likely on the same mains phase and your feeder will
probably run parallel to the mains wiring in places. You need to
minimise RF in the building before writing off horizontal aerials.
Post by 2m0-sil
so at this present location it has to be a vertical which i know is
a compromise.
It doesn't have to be. Verticals, as we've said here in the past, have
some very useful characteristics. It all depends on which bands are
most important to you. We need some more information: Firstly, your
location's topography, i.e. density of buildings and trees, the state
of the ground and which bands you are mostly interested in.
--
Radio glossary #66
Incentive: Graduated increases in power levels that aren't enforced at
all. That'll encourage them to upgrade!
Spike
2011-06-20 13:43:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chronos
Post by 2m0-sil
i will try and explain my situation and this should give you a
better understanding to the type of antenna i need.
my src x80 is situated in the front garden the size of which is
around 20 by 14 foot
I seem to be mising at least one posting by the PP.

This is what I understand his situation is:

-----
Post by Chronos
Post by 2m0-sil
The ground outside is soil covered clay.
There are elevated houses to the rear and a clear take-off from the front
through some trees.
There is a useful sized back garden but it is crossed by telephone cables.
The neighbours are not enthusiastic supporters of Amateur Radio;
their TV appears to have very poor immunity.
Everything in the shack has ferrite rings and I also use a LPF.
There is no interference to TVs in house; they are all modern flatscreen type.
I like to work 40 through 10 but have no interest in 11m.
I have a SRC X80 situated in the front garden, which is about 20 by 14 feet.
-----
Post by Chronos
The SRC X80 is just a CB type monopole/GP modified with a 9:1 un-un in
a plastic box at the feedpoint instead of the matching coil. It's a
typical example of what would be, with wire instead of the aluminium
vertical, a SWL's long wire. Again, it'll get you QRV but it's not
even close to efficient on any of the bands.
I don't know the antenna, but it does smack of a general-purpose
receiving set-up. One reason that it doesn't appear to cause TVI to
the neighbour (I take it that is so) is that it isn't radiating much
power.

As it will be coax-fed, the first thing I would say to the PP is to
wind a choke at the base of the antenna, to stop any RF coming back
towards the shack. Six or eight turns might be enough - it doesn't
have to be pretty, but it just might get rid of the RF/breakthrough
problem.

Bing...just seen the spec. An ATU seems mandatory, which suggests the
coax is well up the air to RF, as the ATU will likely be at the rig
end. This could well be a source of problems. If winding a choke at
the antenna end causes the ATU tuning to go off, then the coax will be
live - not a good siutation.
Post by Chronos
Do you talk to your neighbours? Could you try a braid breaker on their
feeder and a ferrite on the supply cable? When you say poor immunity,
does this manifest itself on the digibox (loss of signal, assuming
you're DSO'd already) or the TV itself? If they're not digital, it may
be worth spending the £20-ish to get them a cheap freeview box, which
may not suffer from the picture quality issues of analogue reception.
Look at it as an investment in your hobby rather than a gift to them.
If they have a digibox, ensure they're using SCART or similar rather
than the UHF modulator output.
I'd say - and the PP has also hinted - that his biggest problem is
less antenna technology than the neighbours and their breakthrough
problem.

I'd agree with your approach: try some simple braid-breakers, if
that's possible. If not, then no matter how much it grates, buy them
off by getting rid of the problem. The cheap set-top box idea might be
the way to go, provided the neighbour's TV has a SCART socket. A
'nuclear option' might be to buy them a modern TV. Compared to the
price of most rigs it could be a relatively cheap way forward. It
needs to be looked at as an investment in Amateur Radio. With the
Olympics coming it could be just what they want. However, this is a
judgment for the PP to make.
Post by Chronos
With the telephone cables, you're also going to suffer from noise. How
you deal with that depends on a number of factors, not least being
aerial you choose. That is a topic for after your decision on a
reasonably efficient aerial system.
Post by 2m0-sil
i have tried wire antennas in the past but they interfere with the
upstairs neighbours tv through a loft mounted tv antenna.
Bear in mind this may be a feeder radiation/unwanted RF in the
building issue rather than your aerial itself. With balanced aerials
fed with coaxial, you'll need at least a common mode choke to stop
currents on the feeder from causing problems. Since they're upstairs,
you are most likely on the same mains phase and your feeder will
probably run parallel to the mains wiring in places. You need to
minimise RF in the building before writing off horizontal aerials.
Post by 2m0-sil
so at this present location it has to be a vertical which i know is
a compromise.
It doesn't have to be. Verticals, as we've said here in the past, have
some very useful characteristics. It all depends on which bands are
most important to you. We need some more information: Firstly, your
location's topography, i.e. density of buildings and trees, the state
of the ground and which bands you are mostly interested in.
I'd suggest to the PP that he gets a second-hand 11m-band vertical,
removes any tuning unit at the base, connects the centre of the SO-239
to the mast, and run a 1k several watts resistor across the SO-239
terminals to ground the static. Then collapse it to about 5m in height
and use it on 20m, fine tuning the length for lowest SWR. Shorten it
a bit more to get on 17m - a nice band to work, especially if keeping
the power down. Add four radial wires culled from scrap mains cable,
just lay them on the surface. See what the problems turn up with
neighbours, etc.

This sort of thing has got to be one step at a time.
--
Spike
Chronos
2011-06-20 13:49:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spike
and run a 1k several watts resistor across the SO-239
terminals to ground the static.
I've been using a 1M 0.25W resistor on the feedpoint of my verticals
for this. Is that not sufficient? I had toyed with the idea of a large
choke for the same purpose but haven't tested that one yet.
--
Radio glossary #28
Insulation tester: A device which surprises visitors to the shack with
a friendly introduction to potential difference as they reach for the
door handle.
Spike
2011-06-20 14:16:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chronos
Post by Spike
and run a 1k several watts resistor across the SO-239
terminals to ground the static.
I've been using a 1M 0.25W resistor on the feedpoint of my verticals
for this. Is that not sufficient? I had toyed with the idea of a large
choke for the same purpose but haven't tested that one yet.
A choke would be a good idea as it makes a DC path to ground, but if
doing aerial experimentation just could give odd effects that might
affect the results.

The figure I'd had in mind for many years for a bleed resistor was 1k,
culled IIRC from an RSGB source - so it must be authoritative ;-)

At the end of the day it's a balance beween not affecting the SWR or
antenna tuning, and the rate at which static could be bled off. I can
imagine that there's a fortunately few occasions where 1M couldn't
bleed it away fast enough, whereas a 1k might.

HTH...
--
Spike
Chronos
2011-06-20 14:57:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spike
At the end of the day it's a balance beween not affecting the SWR or
antenna tuning, and the rate at which static could be bled off. I
can imagine that there's a fortunately few occasions where 1M
couldn't bleed it away fast enough, whereas a 1k might.
HTH...
It does, thanks. I have gas discharge tubes at the aerial relay for
the big zaps and the aerials are disconnected when the station is not
in use, so just bleeding the static from the aerial itself is enough.
Fortunately at HF the capacitance of these GD tubes is insignificant.
I suspect my 1M will do the job adequately for now.
--
Radio glossary #56
Terminator: The XYL at tea time in mid QSO.
Chronos
2011-06-20 14:03:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spike
I'd agree with your approach: try some simple braid-breakers, if
that's possible. If not, then no matter how much it grates, buy them
off by getting rid of the problem. The cheap set-top box idea might
be the way to go, provided the neighbour's TV has a SCART socket. A
'nuclear option' might be to buy them a modern TV. Compared to the
price of most rigs it could be a relatively cheap way forward. It
needs to be looked at as an investment in Amateur Radio. With the
Olympics coming it could be just what they want. However, this is a
judgment for the PP to make.
You know Spike, I'm glad that I'm not the only one who doesn't see
getting things done for neighbours as wasted time. As I said, I treat
it as an investment in my own chosen activity rather than a giveaway.
I haven't had any problems with neighbours by approaching them this
way and it keeps everyone happy, not to mention working wonders for
amateur radio's image.

Nine times out of ten they end up with better reception as a side-
effect. I've been up on roofs replacing waterlogged coax, soldered
umpteen floating Belling-Lees, removed cheap and nasty preamplifiers,
made high pass filters and braid breakers [1] and wound so many mains
leads around toroids that I've lost count. Every single time I've
cured the issue and the neighbour involved usually says something like
"so it was my telly after all!" They're then not afraid to come to me
with any further problems instead of the first action being to
complain to the authorities.

I've had people look at me as if I'm mad when I suggest these things
but I firmly believe it is not only our duty to put these things
right, it's also essential for the future of amateur radio to educate
people whilst doing so.

[1] A while back someone posted the "How to resolve TVI" information
sheet on here. Both braid breakers and high-pass filters are covered
and are really simple for the average amateur to build.
--
Radio glossary #41
Radio rally: Recently upgraded to "hamfest," which is an apposite
description of the attendees. Resembles a pigsty and smells about the
same.
Brian Morrison
2011-06-20 14:15:15 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 15:03:55 +0100
Post by Chronos
I've had people look at me as if I'm mad when I suggest these things
but I firmly believe it is not only our duty to put these things
right, it's also essential for the future of amateur radio to educate
people whilst doing so.
I agree Matt, but the problem is that the level of ignorance of an
amateur's technical knowledge is high and in some cases the very first
complaint received comes wrapped around a brick or poured through the
letterbox. It may be trivial to fix, but if you're PNG before even
offering to sort things out then it's hard to make any progress.

I've known my neighbours, and got on well with them, for about 14 years
but still they came round and accused me of causing interference
instantly and were most miffed when I was able to demonstrate that I
was not transmitting on any of the occasions mentioned, in fact in
several cases not transmitting at any time that day.
--
Brian Morrison
Chronos
2011-06-20 14:40:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Morrison
I've known my neighbours, and got on well with them, for about 14
years but still they came round and accused me of causing
interference instantly and were most miffed when I was able to
demonstrate that I was not transmitting on any of the occasions
mentioned, in fact in several cases not transmitting at any time
that day.
Log. Log. Log. Log everything. It's as important now as it has ever
been. I know I keep banging on about it, but it bears repeating.
--
Radio glossary #52
Lies: "You're 59," "Hope to see you again," and "QSL sure via bureau."
Spike
2011-06-20 14:26:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chronos
Post by Spike
I'd agree with your approach: try some simple braid-breakers, if
that's possible. If not, then no matter how much it grates, buy them
off by getting rid of the problem. The cheap set-top box idea might
be the way to go, provided the neighbour's TV has a SCART socket. A
'nuclear option' might be to buy them a modern TV. Compared to the
price of most rigs it could be a relatively cheap way forward. It
needs to be looked at as an investment in Amateur Radio. With the
Olympics coming it could be just what they want. However, this is a
judgment for the PP to make.
You know Spike, I'm glad that I'm not the only one who doesn't see
getting things done for neighbours as wasted time. As I said, I treat
it as an investment in my own chosen activity rather than a giveaway.
I haven't had any problems with neighbours by approaching them this
way and it keeps everyone happy, not to mention working wonders for
amateur radio's image.
Nine times out of ten they end up with better reception as a side-
effect. I've been up on roofs replacing waterlogged coax, soldered
umpteen floating Belling-Lees, removed cheap and nasty preamplifiers,
made high pass filters and braid breakers [1] and wound so many mains
leads around toroids that I've lost count. Every single time I've
cured the issue and the neighbour involved usually says something like
"so it was my telly after all!" They're then not afraid to come to me
with any further problems instead of the first action being to
complain to the authorities.
I've had people look at me as if I'm mad when I suggest these things
but I firmly believe it is not only our duty to put these things
right, it's also essential for the future of amateur radio to educate
people whilst doing so.
I don't normally requote the whole of a post just to add a one-liner,
but then...BTDTGTTS.

It might not win life-long friends sometimes, but it does show that
the persuasive "you were transmitting so it must be your fault"
approach is too simplistic.
Post by Chronos
[1] A while back someone posted the "How to resolve TVI" information
sheet on here. Both braid breakers and high-pass filters are covered
and are really simple for the average amateur to build.
Yes, they are, I've made a few in my time...;-)
--
Spike
Chronos
2011-06-20 14:38:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spike
It might not win life-long friends sometimes, but it does show that
the persuasive "you were transmitting so it must be your fault"
approach is too simplistic.
As with Brian's post, yet another good eason to keep that log. It may
no longer be a legal requirement but you can bet one day, for one
reason or another, you're going to need it if you don't.
--
Radio glossary #67
Computing: Whole hours of waiting interspersed with periods of
frenetic activity and moments of abject terror.
2m0-sil
2011-06-20 11:42:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2m0-sil
Post by Chronos
Post by 2m0-sil
thanks for taking the time to reply.
seems it has a few pros and cons this antenna so will have to have a
good think about it.
John, all multi-band compact aerials are a compromise. For example,
those "hybrid quad" compact beams do not live up to their price tag,
simply because they're trying to bend the rules. It's the same with
these - they'll get you QRV, but they're never going to allow you to
mix it with the big guns.
Tell us what your bands of interest are and your available space and
someone with a little more aerial-fu than me may be able to suggest
something that isn't such a compromise that maximises your potential.
With a little planning, you'll be able to tailor your setup to your
interests, which will make your time spent on the radio more
worthwhile. Blindly trying commercial aerials can be very frustrating,
not to mention being expensive, and there's simply no need. Aerials
are simple and cheap to make and it's very satisfying to use something
you created rather than being tied down by compromises someone else
decided for you, not to mention having to pay for the privilege.
Also remember the simpler an aerial is, the less the losses. Traps,
loading coils, every single joint all contribute to RL (resistive
losses) which, on an aerial with a low radiation resistance such as a
ground fed quarter wave (or something pretending to be one), makes a
significant impact on your radiated signal. This is why balanced
aerials such as doublets and dipoles are popular - they minimise RL,
particularly ground resistance, are simple to construct and don't cost
the earth.
Steve Webb's "CobWebb" is a good example of lateral thinking with
simple balanced aerials. It's basically a nest of dipoles. The shape
gives you an omnidirectional radiation pattern and the ends of the
elements being in close proximity minimises pickup of electrical noise
like a loop. Each square is a full sized double-gamma matched dipole
in its own right so RL is kept low, efficiency is preserved and the
dipoles are a good match to 50 Ohms.
Have a think and get back to us. We're always willing to answer
questions like this.
--
Radio glossary #48
Radio ham: Cured pork warmed in the microwave.
thanks again for the reply,
i will try and explain my situation and this should give you a better
understanding to the type of antenna i need.
my src x80 is situated in the front garden the size of which is around
20 by 14 foot
.i have a useful sized back garden but it is crossed by telephone
cables but the main problem with the back is a neighbours tv that has
very poor immunity.
i have tried wire antennas in the past but they interfere with the
upstairs neighbours tv through a loft mounted tv antenna.
so at this present location it has to be a vertical which i know is a
compromise.
what im looking for is the best compromise i can get.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
the ground outside is soil covered clay.
i have elevated houses to the rear and a clear take-off from the front
through some trees.
the neighbours can go f..k themselves due to their bad attitude.
everything in the shack has ferrite rings and i also use an lpf.
no interference to tvs in house there are 4 all flatscreen--no issues.
bands i like to work 40 through 10 and i dont use11m lol.
MM6-JBN
2011-06-20 11:52:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2m0-sil
Post by 2m0-sil
Post by Chronos
Post by 2m0-sil
thanks for taking the time to reply.
seems it has a few pros and cons this antenna so will have to have a
good think about it.
John, all multi-band compact aerials are a compromise. For example,
those "hybrid quad" compact beams do not live up to their price tag,
simply because they're trying to bend the rules. It's the same with
these - they'll get you QRV, but they're never going to allow you to
mix it with the big guns.
Tell us what your bands of interest are and your available space and
someone with a little more aerial-fu than me may be able to suggest
something that isn't such a compromise that maximises your potential.
With a little planning, you'll be able to tailor your setup to your
interests, which will make your time spent on the radio more
worthwhile. Blindly trying commercial aerials can be very frustrating,
not to mention being expensive, and there's simply no need. Aerials
are simple and cheap to make and it's very satisfying to use something
you created rather than being tied down by compromises someone else
decided for you, not to mention having to pay for the privilege.
Also remember the simpler an aerial is, the less the losses. Traps,
loading coils, every single joint all contribute to RL (resistive
losses) which, on an aerial with a low radiation resistance such as a
ground fed quarter wave (or something pretending to be one), makes a
significant impact on your radiated signal. This is why balanced
aerials such as doublets and dipoles are popular - they minimise RL,
particularly ground resistance, are simple to construct and don't cost
the earth.
Steve Webb's "CobWebb" is a good example of lateral thinking with
simple balanced aerials. It's basically a nest of dipoles. The shape
gives you an omnidirectional radiation pattern and the ends of the
elements being in close proximity minimises pickup of electrical noise
like a loop. Each square is a full sized double-gamma matched dipole
in its own right so RL is kept low, efficiency is preserved and the
dipoles are a good match to 50 Ohms.
Have a think and get back to us. We're always willing to answer
questions like this.
--
Radio glossary #48
Radio ham: Cured pork warmed in the microwave.
thanks again for the reply,
i will try and explain my situation and this should give you a better
understanding to the type of antenna i need.
my src x80 is situated in the front garden the size of which is around
20 by 14 foot
.i have a useful sized back garden but it is crossed by telephone
cables but the main problem with the back is a neighbours tv that has
very poor immunity.
i have tried wire antennas in the past but they interfere with the
upstairs neighbours tv through a loft mounted tv antenna.
so at this present location it has to be a vertical which i know is a
compromise.
what im looking for is the best compromise i can get.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
the ground outside is soil covered clay.
i have elevated houses to the rear and a clear take-off from the front
through some trees.
the neighbours can go f..k themselves due to their bad attitude.
everything in the shack has ferrite rings and i also use an lpf.
no interference to tvs in house there are 4 all flatscreen--no issues.
bands i like to work 40 through 10 and i dont use11m lol.
Make a vertical for each band you wont to work .
Chronos
2011-06-20 21:04:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2m0-sil
the neighbours can go f..k themselves due to their bad attitude.
John, I had to think long and hard about how to reply to this. Please
don't take this the wrong way, but this runs so contrary to the
amateur spirit that what I'm about to say may sound pompous:

That will make you feel better for about five minutes, the pain it
will cause will last as long as they are your neighbours. You are now
the operator of a legitimate experimental radio station, representing
amateur radio to the non-amateurs around you and with those privileges
come responsibilities.

Oh sure, fine for him to say living as he has done most of his life in
small communities where everyone knows everyone else and one of his
neighbours an inactive GW6[1]. All very true, but you have to at least
try. If you really are causing the problem, you have a duty of care to
do all within your power to ensure that your activities don't spoil
the enjoyment of others, however vexatious or arrogant they appear at
first glance.

Even when it isn't you causing the problem, you *must* take the
complaint seriously, stay calm and lead the neighbour through the
diagnosis step by step, showing them your log and making notes of
actions taken. If you don't, they'll always believe it is you
regardless of any clean bill of health you may get from the
authorities. Once you have done so, you have right on your side and
any problems they cause over this can then be dealt with through the
correct channels.

Pompous lecture over.
Post by 2m0-sil
everything in the shack has ferrite rings and i also use an lpf.
no interference to tvs in house there are 4 all flatscreen--no
issues.
Filtering the supply is always a good idea. However, an LPF on any
modern radio will simply be a case of adding to the ultimate
attenuation at the bottom of the skirt of the existing LPF and won't
really do much at all. If it has a single cut-off, you may as well
leave it off for anything other than 15-10m as the low pass stage in
the radio (that's what gets switched in and out with the relays as you
change band) will be doing all the work and your spurii will probably
be less than -60dBc (1/1,000,000th of the carrier power, so 50uW at
50W) on a well designed amateur set by the time that signal reaches
your external 35MHz LPF anyway.

In fact, the two extra connections and the associated potential for
poor joints, especially in PL259s, is more likely to be a liability
than a protection. Your problem is your fundamental making merry with
the set's AGC, long unbalanced conductors and a plethora of other
things it can mix with, get into or block, not harmonics or spurii.
It's a common misconception that most EMC problems are due to out of
band radiation when the reverse is actually true. You have to keep it
out of other people's equipment in the near field and that usually
means at their end for people like us with small gardens.

LCD and Plasma sets are generally more immune to EMC issues as the
image on the screen is built up digitally rather than from a scanning
electron gun or three and a load of analogue amplifiers. That means
the whole thing from decode to display is digital and is thus ignorant
of RF. It's not impossible to interfere with a digital circuit, but
it's a damned sight harder.

A CRT set, however, can be affected by RF at almost any stage. Pickup
on the braid of the feeder can find its way into any and all sections
that process an analogue waveform. You can't say just because your
sets seem immune that your signal isn't causing interference to legacy
technology.

[1] I'm working on it. He has a Baofeng on the way, we have his old
call on Buckmaster and there's a form on my desk. It took a while, but
a dual band portable for £30 was the straw that broke his apathetic
camel's back.
--
Radio glossary #16
Breadboard: A device used to prove MTBF figures of components to be
false.
G4DHJ/ A
2011-06-19 20:31:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2m0-sil
hello,
would like to know if anyone on the group owns one of the sandpiper
range of antennas.
im looking for views on performance, build quility etc.
thanks--john.
I would pass......
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