Discussion:
OT: Ping Jimbo re recent fire
(too old to reply)
Spike
2017-06-15 07:42:16 UTC
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The TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in London
mentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have been
called 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it was
replaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floor
not necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and if
it wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fast
spread of fire?
--
Spike
Brian Reay
2017-06-15 07:59:12 UTC
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Post by Spike
The TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in London
mentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have been
called 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it was
replaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floor
not necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and if
it wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fast
spread of fire?
Why not wait until the facts are known? It is bad enough having the
'armchair experts' on the TV etc without you chipping in.
--
Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-15 09:54:58 UTC
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Post by Brian Reay
Post by Spike
The TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in London
mentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have been
called 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it was
replaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floor
not necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and if
it wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fast
spread of fire?
Why not wait until the facts are known? It is bad enough having the
'armchair experts' on the TV etc without you chipping in.
Have to agree with you there brian..no offence spike but the media are
filling time with the most crazy speculation.......there are two separate
things fire stops and cavity barriers ....some can be combustible...and
they only slow down fire spread and do not stop it.....in a ten mega watt
flat fire it spreads out the window and any cladding and insulation has to
perform well not to spread fire to the flat above....we may find that what
was built met all the regulation requirements and the materials used were
tested and given a good fire rating .....all I know is that the many over
claddings I approve met the regulations at the time but that is not to say I
thought what was done was a good idea just fashion and an attempt to solve
dampness problems...... the high flats should have been demolished not
messed about with if they were failing as they were fire safe as
built.....ten years ago Vipond were pushing their domestic sprinklers but
fitting was voluntary and was rarely done .....anyway my money is on bomb
making equipment in a 'fridge just to add to the speculation ......Ronan
point met the regulations at the time and now we have disproportionate
collapse regulations for buildings above four stories....we live and learn
unless we live in a high flat and we might not.......the rich can avoid such
things ......
FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
2017-06-15 10:15:44 UTC
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Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Spike
The TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in London
mentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have been
called 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it was
replaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floor
not necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and if
it wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fast
spread of fire?
Why not wait until the facts are known? It is bad enough having the
'armchair experts' on the TV etc without you chipping in.
Have to agree with you there brian..no offence spike but the media are
filling time with the most crazy speculation.......there are two separate
things fire stops and cavity barriers ....some can be combustible...and
they only slow down fire spread and do not stop it.....in a ten mega watt
flat fire it spreads out the window and any cladding and insulation has to
perform well not to spread fire to the flat above....we may find that what
was built met all the regulation requirements and the materials used were
tested and given a good fire rating .....all I know is that the many over
claddings I approve met the regulations at the time but that is not to say
I thought what was done was a good idea just fashion and an attempt to
solve dampness problems...... the high flats should have been demolished
not messed about with if they were failing as they were fire safe as
built.....ten years ago Vipond were pushing their domestic sprinklers but
fitting was voluntary and was rarely done .....anyway my money is on bomb
making equipment in a 'fridge just to add to the speculation ......Ronan
point met the regulations at the time and now we have disproportionate
collapse regulations for buildings above four stories....we live and learn
unless we live in a high flat and we might not.......the rich can avoid
such things ......
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
--
;-)
.
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
.
http://turner-smith.uk
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-15 10:17:14 UTC
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Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Spike
The TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in London
mentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have been
called 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it was
replaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floor
not necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and if
it wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fast
spread of fire?
Why not wait until the facts are known? It is bad enough having the
'armchair experts' on the TV etc without you chipping in.
Have to agree with you there brian..no offence spike but the media are
filling time with the most crazy speculation.......there are two separate
things fire stops and cavity barriers ....some can be combustible...and
they only slow down fire spread and do not stop it.....in a ten mega watt
flat fire it spreads out the window and any cladding and insulation has
to perform well not to spread fire to the flat above....we may find that
what was built met all the regulation requirements and the materials used
were tested and given a good fire rating .....all I know is that the many
over claddings I approve met the regulations at the time but that is not
to say I thought what was done was a good idea just fashion and an
attempt to solve dampness problems...... the high flats should have been
demolished not messed about with if they were failing as they were fire
safe as built.....ten years ago Vipond were pushing their domestic
sprinklers but fitting was voluntary and was rarely done .....anyway my
money is on bomb making equipment in a 'fridge just to add to the
speculation ......Ronan point met the regulations at the time and now we
have disproportionate collapse regulations for buildings above four
stories....we live and learn unless we live in a high flat and we might
not.......the rich can avoid such things ......
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
em...the fire? ....
Brian Morrison
2017-06-15 11:27:07 UTC
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On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 11:15:44 +0100
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
Combustible materials have a pretty high energy density, once they are
alight the radiated heat is very fierce and the whole contents ignite
within less than a couple of minutes in some cases.
--
Brian Morrison
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-16 19:01:17 UTC
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Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 11:15:44 +0100
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
Combustible materials have a pretty high energy density, once they are
alight the radiated heat is very fierce and the whole contents ignite
within less than a couple of minutes in some cases.
yes we and the fire service used to consider ONE 10 megawatt fire from a
flat block that had some windows and door into a common Atrium when working
out the smoke extraction requirements ....
Spike
2017-06-16 07:49:58 UTC
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Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
--
Spike
FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
2017-06-16 11:15:34 UTC
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Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixed with
air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed with air
was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000 hours? That
looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.
--
;-)
.
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
.
http://turner-smith.uk
Spike
2017-06-16 11:44:46 UTC
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Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Spike
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed with
air was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000
hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.
It's called 'Thermodynamics'.
--
Spike
Brian Howie
2017-06-16 12:15:41 UTC
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Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Spike
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed with
air was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000
hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.
1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litre

Butane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litre

So your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang if
you let it all out at once.

Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiency
of converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2
Hours.

A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry and
explosions.

<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_bu
tane.html>

Brian
--
Brian Howie
FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
2017-06-16 22:36:30 UTC
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Post by Brian Howie
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Spike
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed with air
was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000 hours?
That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.
1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litre
Butane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litre
So your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang if you
let it all out at once.
Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiency of
converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2 Hours.
A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry and
explosions.
<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_bu
tane.html>
Sorry, I need to drink less water and more alcohol. I was assuming you got
10Megawatt-hours worth of energy, whilst the explosion would only last a few
seconds at the most. The rest of the energy would come from anything around
that had been heated to its' flash point and was now also burning.
--
;-)
.
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
.
http://turner-smith.uk
Roger Hayter
2017-06-18 07:22:38 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Brian Howie
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Spike
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed with
air was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000
hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.
1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litre
Butane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litre
So your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang if
you let it all out at once.
Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiency
of converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2
Hours.
A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry and
explosions.
<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_bu
tane.html>
Brian
I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat's
structure and contents burning.
--
Roger Hayter
Spike
2017-06-18 08:21:46 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Howie
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Spike
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed with
air was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000
hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.
1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litre
Butane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litre
So your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang if
you let it all out at once.
Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiency
of converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2
Hours.
A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry and
explosions.
<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_bu
tane.html>
I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat's
structure and contents burning.
Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.

1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.

A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.

Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.

Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.

If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' in
a small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /
.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.

Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), the
Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.

Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units called
kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600
seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600
= 3.6 MJ.

HTH
--
Spike
Roger Hayter
2017-06-18 12:04:13 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Howie
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Spike
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed with
air was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000
hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.
1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litre
Butane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litre
So your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang if
you let it all out at once.
Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiency
of converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2
Hours.
A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry and
explosions.
<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_bu
tane.html>
I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat's
structure and contents burning.
Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.
1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.
A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.
Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.
Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.
If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' in
a small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /
.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.
Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), the
Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.
Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units called
kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600
seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600
= 3.6 MJ.
HTH
Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW of
power they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes or
tens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacent
structures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.
--
Roger Hayter
Spike
2017-06-18 13:11:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.
1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.
A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.
Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.
Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.
If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' in
a small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /
.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.
Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), the
Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.
Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units called
kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600
seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600
= 3.6 MJ.
HTH
Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW of
power they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes or
tens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacent
structures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.
Except if it's a gas explosion, which means that the fire crews will be
searching rubble.

Firstly, there were enough posts in this sub-thread to suggest that
people are confused with the meanings of the terms 'power' and 'energy'.
Perhaps I should have posted this as a separate thread. Mea culpa.

Secondly, loose terms like '10 MW' are in themselves unhelpful unless it
is clear from the context that the meaning is either 'power' or an
incorrectly used term for 'energy'. If a fire with an energy expressed
as '10 MW' occurs lasting an hour, then the actual power driving it is
only 3kW [1], which is hardly an unusual figure in a domestic kitchen
setting.

[1] 3000W x 3600s = 10.8 x 10^6 Ws = 10.8 MJ or '10MW'

Thirdly, the thing to come out of these calculations is the surprisingly
high energy contents of organic materials, e.g. butane in this case, or
petrol, or plastic 'insulation', or chip fat. The latter is ~38 MJ/kg,
so a two-pint chip pan fire burning for 10 minutes has a power of (38 x
10^6)/600 > 6kW. Add in some furnishings and you've got a '10MW' fire.
Throw in some tons of plastic insulation round a building, and you have
a serious problem.

I once attended a presentation on fire safety. The ex-fireman giving it
described a fire in a Woolworth store. The alarms went off, but the
people in the cafe on the first floor were having their lunch and so
ignored the warnings until it was too late for them to get out of the
area. He was the first fireman to reach the cafe, and he was in tears as
he spoke.

Never fanny about with fire safety, be aware of the energy content of
materials, plan your escape routes, and have an ad-hoc smoke mask in
mind. The clearest part of a smoke-filled room is the inch above the
floor. Use it to breath, avoid smoke, and navigate to your chosen exit.
I also carry a small torch and a Metropolitan Police whistle - the
latter is *far* more effective than shouting.
--
Spike
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-18 13:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.
1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.
A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.
Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.
Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.
If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' in
a small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /
.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.
Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), the
Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.
Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units called
kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600
seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600
= 3.6 MJ.
HTH
Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW of
power they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes or
tens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacent
structures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.
Except if it's a gas explosion, which means that the fire crews will be
searching rubble.
Firstly, there were enough posts in this sub-thread to suggest that people
are confused with the meanings of the terms 'power' and 'energy'. Perhaps
I should have posted this as a separate thread. Mea culpa.
Secondly, loose terms like '10 MW' are in themselves unhelpful unless it
is clear from the context that the meaning is either 'power' or an
incorrectly used term for 'energy'. If a fire with an energy expressed as
'10 MW' occurs lasting an hour, then the actual power driving it is only
3kW [1], which is hardly an unusual figure in a domestic kitchen setting.
[1] 3000W x 3600s = 10.8 x 10^6 Ws = 10.8 MJ or '10MW'
Thirdly, the thing to come out of these calculations is the surprisingly
high energy contents of organic materials, e.g. butane in this case, or
petrol, or plastic 'insulation', or chip fat. The latter is ~38 MJ/kg, so
a two-pint chip pan fire burning for 10 minutes has a power of (38 x
10^6)/600 > 6kW. Add in some furnishings and you've got a '10MW' fire.
Throw in some tons of plastic insulation round a building, and you have a
serious problem.
I once attended a presentation on fire safety. The ex-fireman giving it
described a fire in a Woolworth store. The alarms went off, but the people
in the cafe on the first floor were having their lunch and so ignored the
warnings until it was too late for them to get out of the area. He was the
first fireman to reach the cafe, and he was in tears as he spoke.
Never fanny about with fire safety, be aware of the energy content of
materials, plan your escape routes, and have an ad-hoc smoke mask in mind.
The clearest part of a smoke-filled room is the inch above the floor. Use
it to breath, avoid smoke, and navigate to your chosen exit. I also carry
a small torch and a Metropolitan Police whistle - the latter is *far* more
effective than shouting.
Spike
how dare you call me loose ! .....
Spike
2017-06-18 13:35:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.
1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.
A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.
Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.
Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.
If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' in
a small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /
.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.
Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), the
Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.
Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units called
kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600
seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600
= 3.6 MJ.
HTH
Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW of
power they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes or
tens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacent
structures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.
Except if it's a gas explosion, which means that the fire crews will be
searching rubble.
Firstly, there were enough posts in this sub-thread to suggest that people
are confused with the meanings of the terms 'power' and 'energy'. Perhaps
I should have posted this as a separate thread. Mea culpa.
Secondly, loose terms like '10 MW' are in themselves unhelpful unless it
is clear from the context that the meaning is either 'power' or an
incorrectly used term for 'energy'. If a fire with an energy expressed as
'10 MW' occurs lasting an hour, then the actual power driving it is only
3kW [1], which is hardly an unusual figure in a domestic kitchen setting.
[1] 3000W x 3600s = 10.8 x 10^6 Ws = 10.8 MJ or '10MW'
Thirdly, the thing to come out of these calculations is the surprisingly
high energy contents of organic materials, e.g. butane in this case, or
petrol, or plastic 'insulation', or chip fat. The latter is ~38 MJ/kg, so
a two-pint chip pan fire burning for 10 minutes has a power of (38 x
10^6)/600 > 6kW. Add in some furnishings and you've got a '10MW' fire.
Throw in some tons of plastic insulation round a building, and you have a
serious problem.
I once attended a presentation on fire safety. The ex-fireman giving it
described a fire in a Woolworth store. The alarms went off, but the people
in the cafe on the first floor were having their lunch and so ignored the
warnings until it was too late for them to get out of the area. He was the
first fireman to reach the cafe, and he was in tears as he spoke.
Never fanny about with fire safety, be aware of the energy content of
materials, plan your escape routes, and have an ad-hoc smoke mask in mind.
The clearest part of a smoke-filled room is the inch above the floor. Use
it to breath, avoid smoke, and navigate to your chosen exit. I also carry
a small torch and a Metropolitan Police whistle - the latter is *far* more
effective than shouting.
Spike
how dare you call me loose ! .....
Perish the thought, Jimbo!
--
Spike
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-18 13:46:21 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Spike
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.
1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.
A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.
Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.
Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.
If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' in
a small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /
.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.
Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), the
Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.
Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units called
kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600
seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600
= 3.6 MJ.
HTH
Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW of
power they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes or
tens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacent
structures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.
Except if it's a gas explosion, which means that the fire crews will be
searching rubble.
Firstly, there were enough posts in this sub-thread to suggest that people
are confused with the meanings of the terms 'power' and 'energy'. Perhaps
I should have posted this as a separate thread. Mea culpa.
Secondly, loose terms like '10 MW' are in themselves unhelpful unless it
is clear from the context that the meaning is either 'power' or an
incorrectly used term for 'energy'. If a fire with an energy expressed as
'10 MW' occurs lasting an hour, then the actual power driving it is only
3kW [1], which is hardly an unusual figure in a domestic kitchen setting.
[1] 3000W x 3600s = 10.8 x 10^6 Ws = 10.8 MJ or '10MW'
Thirdly, the thing to come out of these calculations is the surprisingly
high energy contents of organic materials, e.g. butane in this case, or
petrol, or plastic 'insulation', or chip fat. The latter is ~38 MJ/kg, so
a two-pint chip pan fire burning for 10 minutes has a power of (38 x
10^6)/600 > 6kW. Add in some furnishings and you've got a '10MW' fire.
Throw in some tons of plastic insulation round a building, and you have a
serious problem.
I once attended a presentation on fire safety. The ex-fireman giving it
described a fire in a Woolworth store. The alarms went off, but the people
in the cafe on the first floor were having their lunch and so ignored the
warnings until it was too late for them to get out of the area. He was the
first fireman to reach the cafe, and he was in tears as he spoke.
Never fanny about with fire safety, be aware of the energy content of
materials, plan your escape routes, and have an ad-hoc smoke mask in mind.
The clearest part of a smoke-filled room is the inch above the floor. Use
it to breath, avoid smoke, and navigate to your chosen exit. I also carry
a small torch and a Metropolitan Police whistle - the latter is *far* more
effective than shouting.
Spike
how dare you call me loose ! .....
Perish the thought, Jimbo!
cue pink sock comment ....
Brian Reay
2017-06-19 15:40:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Howie
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Spike
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed with
air was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000
hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.
1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litre
Butane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litre
So your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang if
you let it all out at once.
Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiency
of converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2
Hours.
A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry and
explosions.
<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_bu
tane.html>
I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat's
structure and contents burning.
Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.
1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.
A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.
Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.
Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.
If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' in
a small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /
.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.
Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), the
Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.
Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units called
kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600
seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600
= 3.6 MJ.
HTH
Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW of
power they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes or
tens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacent
structures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.
Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his numbers, his
physics is correct.

It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas rather
than electricity to run it.

These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they are
still made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans etc. Caravan
fridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best, i.e.
lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate on propane,
they would function on natural gas but safety may well be an issue. They
have a flame.

It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas or
even caravan fridge was being used.
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-19 17:59:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Howie
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Spike
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed with
air was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000
hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.
1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litre
Butane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litre
So your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang if
you let it all out at once.
Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiency
of converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2
Hours.
A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry and
explosions.
<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_bu
tane.html>
I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat's
structure and contents burning.
Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.
1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.
A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.
Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.
Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.
If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' in
a small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /
.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.
Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), the
Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.
Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units called
kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600
seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600
= 3.6 MJ.
HTH
Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW of
power they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes or
tens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacent
structures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.
Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his numbers, his
physics is correct.
It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas rather
than electricity to run it.
These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they are
still made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans etc. Caravan
fridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best, i.e.
lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate on propane,
they would function on natural gas but safety may well be an issue. They
have a flame.
It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas or
even caravan fridge was being used.
doubt that ....
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-19 18:49:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Howie
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Spike
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed with
air was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000
hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.
1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litre
Butane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litre
So your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang if
you let it all out at once.
Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiency
of converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2
Hours.
A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry and
explosions.
<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_bu
tane.html>
I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat's
structure and contents burning.
Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.
1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.
A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.
Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.
Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.
If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' in
a small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /
.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.
Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), the
Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.
Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units called
kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600
seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600
= 3.6 MJ.
HTH
Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW of
power they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes or
tens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacent
structures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.
Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his numbers, his
physics is correct.
It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas rather
than electricity to run it.
These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they are
still made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans etc. Caravan
fridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best, i.e.
lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate on propane,
they would function on natural gas but safety may well be an issue. They
have a flame.
It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas or
even caravan fridge was being used.
doubt that ....
my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want a bet?
.......
Bernie
2017-06-19 19:03:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 19:49:16 +0100
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Howie
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Spike
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed with
air was released under control you could power a 1kW load for
10,000 hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there
must be a snag.
1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litre
Butane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litre
So your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of
bang if you let it all out at once.
Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiency
of converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get
about 1.2 Hours.
A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry
and explosions.
<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_bu
tane.html>
I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat's
structure and contents burning.
Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.
1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.
A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.
Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.
Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.
If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas
explosion' in a small building, the amount of Power released in
that time is 14.5 MJ /
.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.
Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36
Megaseconds), the Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.
Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units called
kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or
3600 seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh =
1000 x 3600 = 3.6 MJ.
HTH
Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing
10MW of power they are clearly talking about somehting happening
over minutes or tens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct
nuisance to adjacent structures, not somehting happening for
milliseconds.
Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his
numbers, his physics is correct.
It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas
rather than electricity to run it.
These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they
are still made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans
etc. Caravan
fridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best,
i.e. lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate
on propane, they would function on natural gas but safety may well
be an issue. They have a flame.
It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas or
even caravan fridge was being used.
doubt that ....
my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want a bet?
.......
I'll bet that you'll be KFed by >50% of the uk.d-i-y regs by the end of
the month.
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-19 19:03:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bernie
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 19:49:16 +0100
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Howie
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Spike
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed with
air was released under control you could power a 1kW load for
10,000 hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there
must be a snag.
1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litre
Butane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litre
So your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of
bang if you let it all out at once.
Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiency
of converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get
about 1.2 Hours.
A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry
and explosions.
<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_bu
tane.html>
I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat's
structure and contents burning.
Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.
1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.
A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.
Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.
Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.
If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas
explosion' in a small building, the amount of Power released in
that time is 14.5 MJ /
.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.
Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36
Megaseconds), the Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.
Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units called
kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or
3600 seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh =
1000 x 3600 = 3.6 MJ.
HTH
Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing
10MW of power they are clearly talking about somehting happening
over minutes or tens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct
nuisance to adjacent structures, not somehting happening for
milliseconds.
Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his
numbers, his physics is correct.
It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas
rather than electricity to run it.
These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they
are still made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans
etc. Caravan
fridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best,
i.e. lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate
on propane, they would function on natural gas but safety may well
be an issue. They have a flame.
It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas or
even caravan fridge was being used.
doubt that ....
my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want a bet?
.......
I'll bet that you'll be KFed by >50% of the uk.d-i-y regs by the end of
the month.
yes I am casting my pearls to swine .... bloody professionals ...tee hee
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-19 19:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Bernie
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 19:49:16 +0100
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Howie
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Spike
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy
come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed with
air was released under control you could power a 1kW load for
10,000 hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there
must be a snag.
1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litre
Butane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litre
So your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of
bang if you let it all out at once.
Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiency
of converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get
about 1.2 Hours.
A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry
and explosions.
<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_bu
tane.html>
I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat's
structure and contents burning.
Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.
1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.
A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.
Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.
Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.
If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas
explosion' in a small building, the amount of Power released in
that time is 14.5 MJ /
.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.
Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36
Megaseconds), the Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.
Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units called
kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or
3600 seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh =
1000 x 3600 = 3.6 MJ.
HTH
Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing
10MW of power they are clearly talking about somehting happening
over minutes or tens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct
nuisance to adjacent structures, not somehting happening for
milliseconds.
Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his
numbers, his physics is correct.
It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas
rather than electricity to run it.
These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they
are still made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans
etc. Caravan
fridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best,
i.e. lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate
on propane, they would function on natural gas but safety may well
be an issue. They have a flame.
It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas or
even caravan fridge was being used.
doubt that ....
my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want a bet?
.......
I'll bet that you'll be KFed by >50% of the uk.d-i-y regs by the end of
the month.
yes I am casting my pearls to swine .... bloody professionals ...tee hee
but everthing I have said will be proved true .........
Bernie
2017-06-19 19:26:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 20:15:38 +0100
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Bernie
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 19:49:16 +0100
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Howie
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Spike
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that
energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible
gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane
mixed with
air was released under control you could power a 1kW load
for 10,000 hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but
there must be a snag.
1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litre
Butane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litre
So your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot
of bang if you let it all out at once.
Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to
the efficiency
of converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get
about 1.2 Hours.
A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY
chemistry and explosions.
<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_bu
tane.html>
I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat's
structure and contents burning.
Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.
1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.
A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.
Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.
Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.
If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas
explosion' in a small building, the amount of Power released
in that time is 14.5 MJ /
.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.
Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36
Megaseconds), the Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.
Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units called
kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour
(or 3600 seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So
1 kWh = 1000 x 3600 = 3.6 MJ.
HTH
Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire
producing 10MW of power they are clearly talking about
somehting happening over minutes or tens of minutes and
therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacent structures,
not somehting happening for milliseconds.
Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his
numbers, his physics is correct.
It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used
gas rather than electricity to run it.
These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if
they are still made for the domestic market. They are used in
caravans etc. Caravan
fridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate
best, i.e. lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed
to operate on propane, they would function on natural gas but
safety may well be an issue. They have a flame.
It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas or
even caravan fridge was being used.
doubt that ....
my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want a
bet? .......
I'll bet that you'll be KFed by >50% of the uk.d-i-y regs by the
end of the month.
yes I am casting my pearls to swine .... bloody
professionals ...tee hee
but everthing I have said will be proved true .........
A muslimist with a bomb in the salad draw?
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-20 06:17:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bernie
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 20:15:38 +0100
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Bernie
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 19:49:16 +0100
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Howie
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Spike
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that
energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible
gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane
mixed with
air was released under control you could power a 1kW load
for 10,000 hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but
there must be a snag.
1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litre
Butane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litre
So your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot
of bang if you let it all out at once.
Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to
the efficiency
of converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get
about 1.2 Hours.
A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY
chemistry and explosions.
<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_bu
tane.html>
I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of
the flat's
structure and contents burning.
Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.
1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.
A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.
Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.
Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.
If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas
explosion' in a small building, the amount of Power released
in that time is 14.5 MJ /
.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.
Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36
Megaseconds), the Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.
Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units called
kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour
(or 3600 seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So
1 kWh = 1000 x 3600 = 3.6 MJ.
HTH
Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire
producing 10MW of power they are clearly talking about
somehting happening over minutes or tens of minutes and
therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacent structures,
not somehting happening for milliseconds.
Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his
numbers, his physics is correct.
It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used
gas rather than electricity to run it.
These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if
they are still made for the domestic market. They are used in
caravans etc. Caravan
fridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate
best, i.e. lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed
to operate on propane, they would function on natural gas but
safety may well be an issue. They have a flame.
It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas or
even caravan fridge was being used.
doubt that ....
my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want a
bet? .......
I'll bet that you'll be KFed by >50% of the uk.d-i-y regs by the
end of the month.
yes I am casting my pearls to swine .... bloody
professionals ...tee hee
but everthing I have said will be proved true .........
A muslimist with a bomb in the salad draw?
well their is a very good chance of that ...
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-20 06:26:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Bernie
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 20:15:38 +0100
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Bernie
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 19:49:16 +0100
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Howie
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Spike
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that
energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible
gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane
mixed with
air was released under control you could power a 1kW load
for 10,000 hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but
there must be a snag.
1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litre
Butane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litre
So your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot
of bang if you let it all out at once.
Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to
the efficiency
of converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get
about 1.2 Hours.
A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY
chemistry and explosions.
<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_bu
tane.html>
I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of
the flat's
structure and contents burning.
Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.
1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.
A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.
Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.
Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.
If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas
explosion' in a small building, the amount of Power released
in that time is 14.5 MJ /
.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.
Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36
Megaseconds), the Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.
Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units called
kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour
(or 3600 seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So
1 kWh = 1000 x 3600 = 3.6 MJ.
HTH
Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire
producing 10MW of power they are clearly talking about
somehting happening over minutes or tens of minutes and
therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacent structures,
not somehting happening for milliseconds.
Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his
numbers, his physics is correct.
It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used
gas rather than electricity to run it.
These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if
they are still made for the domestic market. They are used in
caravans etc. Caravan
fridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate
best, i.e. lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed
to operate on propane, they would function on natural gas but
safety may well be an issue. They have a flame.
It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps
an old gas or
even caravan fridge was being used.
doubt that ....
my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want a
bet? .......
I'll bet that you'll be KFed by >50% of the uk.d-i-y regs by the
end of the month.
yes I am casting my pearls to swine .... bloody
professionals ...tee hee
but everthing I have said will be proved true .........
A muslimist with a bomb in the salad draw?
well their is a very good chance of that ...
w0ops might lose that one ....

"The first engine was there 6 minutes after the call and it now
transpires that the original fridge fire had been extinguished and
the crews where packing up when fire was seen on the outside of the
building."
FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
2017-07-02 22:33:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Bernie
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 20:15:38 +0100
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Bernie
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 19:49:16 +0100
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Howie
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Spike
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that
energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible
gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane
mixed with
air was released under control you could power a 1kW load
for 10,000 hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but
there must be a snag.
1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litre
Butane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litre
So your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot
of bang if you let it all out at once.
Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to
the efficiency
of converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get
about 1.2 Hours.
A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY
chemistry and explosions.
<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_bu
tane.html>
I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of
the flat's
structure and contents burning.
Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.
1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.
A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.
Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.
Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.
If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas
explosion' in a small building, the amount of Power released
in that time is 14.5 MJ /
.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.
Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36
Megaseconds), the Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.
Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units called
kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour
(or 3600 seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So
1 kWh = 1000 x 3600 = 3.6 MJ.
HTH
Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire
producing 10MW of power they are clearly talking about
somehting happening over minutes or tens of minutes and
therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacent structures,
not somehting happening for milliseconds.
Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his
numbers, his physics is correct.
It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used
gas rather than electricity to run it.
These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if
they are still made for the domestic market. They are used in
caravans etc. Caravan
fridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate
best, i.e. lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed
to operate on propane, they would function on natural gas but
safety may well be an issue. They have a flame.
It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps
an old gas or even caravan fridge was being used.
doubt that ....
my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want a
bet? .......
I'll bet that you'll be KFed by >50% of the uk.d-i-y regs by the
end of the month.
yes I am casting my pearls to swine .... bloody
professionals ...tee hee
but everthing I have said will be proved true .........
A muslimist with a bomb in the salad draw?
well their is a very good chance of that ...
I did wonder which of the scumbag terrorist rabbles would claim
responsibility.
--
;-)
.
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
.
http://turner-smith.uk
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-20 07:36:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bernie
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 19:49:16 +0100
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Howie
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Spike
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed with
air was released under control you could power a 1kW load for
10,000 hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there
must be a snag.
1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litre
Butane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litre
So your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of
bang if you let it all out at once.
Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiency
of converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get
about 1.2 Hours.
A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry
and explosions.
<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_bu
tane.html>
I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat's
structure and contents burning.
Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.
1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.
A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.
Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.
Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.
If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas
explosion' in a small building, the amount of Power released in
that time is 14.5 MJ /
.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.
Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36
Megaseconds), the Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.
Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units called
kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or
3600 seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh =
1000 x 3600 = 3.6 MJ.
HTH
Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing
10MW of power they are clearly talking about somehting happening
over minutes or tens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct
nuisance to adjacent structures, not somehting happening for
milliseconds.
Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his
numbers, his physics is correct.
It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas
rather than electricity to run it.
These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they
are still made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans
etc. Caravan
fridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best,
i.e. lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate
on propane, they would function on natural gas but safety may well
be an issue. They have a flame.
It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas or
even caravan fridge was being used.
doubt that ....
my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want a bet?
.......
I'll bet that you'll be KFed by >50% of the uk.d-i-y regs by the end of
the month.
they like my penis and balls high flats anyway .....indicative of the druggy
tossers living within .......

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.8213488,-4.4478019,3a,75y,102.2h,103.34t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIYHDUZydaJfK71ZNqnHluQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DIYHDUZydaJfK71ZNqnHluQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D176.64545%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
Brian Reay
2017-06-20 11:44:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Howie
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Spike
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed with
air was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000
hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.
1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litre
Butane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litre
So your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang if
you let it all out at once.
Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiency
of converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2
Hours.
A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry and
explosions.
<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_bu
tane.html>
I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat's
structure and contents burning.
Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.
1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.
A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.
Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.
Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.
If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' in
a small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5 MJ /
.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.
Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), the
Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.
Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units called
kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600
seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600
= 3.6 MJ.
HTH
Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW of
power they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes or
tens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacent
structures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.
Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his numbers, his
physics is correct.
It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas rather
than electricity to run it.
These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they are
still made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans etc. Caravan
fridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best, i.e.
lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate on propane,
they would function on natural gas but safety may well be an issue. They
have a flame.
It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas or
even caravan fridge was being used.
doubt that ....
my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want a bet?
.......
It is bad enough so many people have died without your silly and bad
taste input.

Being in a confined space when a fire breaks out is very scary, if it
happened to you you wouldn't joke about it.
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-20 15:23:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Howie
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Spike
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Is that 10 Megawatts per flat? Where does all that energy come from?
A half-pint of liquid butane, turned into a combustible gas and mixed
with air, then then burned in a fraction of a second?
So if the energy contained in a half pint of liquid Butane mixed with
air was released under control you could power a 1kW load for 10,000
hours? That looks like very cheap energy, but there must be a snag.
1/2 a pint of Butane is about 0.56 litre
Butane has a calorific value of 26MJ/litre
So your 1/2 pint contains 14.5MJ of energy, which is a lot of bang if
you let it all out at once.
Your 1KW load could run for about 4 hours , but owing to the efficiency
of converting this to electricity, say 30% , you'd only get about 1.2
Hours.
A a possibly related item on butane, fridges, DIY chemistry and
explosions.
<Http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/10/hash_oil_produced_with_bu
tane.html>
I expect that the balance of the 10MW comes from the rest of the flat's
structure and contents burning.
Time for some arithmetic, and some basic unit definition.
1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second (Ws). They are measures of Energy.
A Watt (or 1 Joule per second) is a unit of Power.
Power is the rate at which Energy is expended.
Half a pint of liquid Butane contains 14.5 MegaJoules (MJ) of Energy.
If this is released in 10 milliseconds, typical of a 'gas explosion' in
a small building, the amount of Power released in that time is 14.5
MJ
/
.01 second = 1.45 Gigawatts.
Or, if this Energy was released in 10,000 hours (36 Megaseconds), the
Power would be 14.5 MJ / 36 Ms = 0.4 Watts.
Your electricity meter reads Energy consumed in units called
kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the Energy consumed in 1 hour (or 3600
seconds) by something using 1000 Watts of Power. So 1 kWh = 1000 x 3600
= 3.6 MJ.
HTH
Not really. When the fire brigade talk of a flat fire producing 10MW of
power they are clearly talking about somehting happening over minutes or
tens of minutes and therefore causing a distinct nuisance to adjacent
structures, not somehting happening for milliseconds.
Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his numbers, his
physics is correct.
It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas rather
than electricity to run it.
These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they are
still made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans etc. Caravan
fridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best, i.e.
lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate on propane,
they would function on natural gas but safety may well be an issue. They
have a flame.
It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old
gas
or
even caravan fridge was being used.
doubt that ....
my money is still on a bomb making factory........anybody want a bet?
.......
It is bad enough so many people have died without your silly and bad taste
input.
Being in a confined space when a fire breaks out is very scary, if it
happened to you you wouldn't joke about it.
I have had more to do with fires and fire engineering than most people
...from Glasgow airport, two shopping malls and many rain screenings...not
to mention attending major fires and explosions..... so if I want to say a
bomb making factory is a possibility I will .....
Brian Morrison
2017-06-20 15:27:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 16:23:52 +0100
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
I have had more to do with fires and fire engineering than most
people ...from Glasgow airport, two shopping malls and many rain
screenings...not to mention attending major fires and explosions.....
so if I want to say a bomb making factory is a possibility I
will .....
Latest report I've seen says LFB attended and extinguished the fridge
fire that was reported in flat 14 or 16, as they were leaving they saw
fire spreading upwards possibly having jumped into the external
cladding.
--
Brian Morrison
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-20 15:29:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Morrison
On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 16:23:52 +0100
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
I have had more to do with fires and fire engineering than most
people ...from Glasgow airport, two shopping malls and many rain
screenings...not to mention attending major fires and explosions.....
so if I want to say a bomb making factory is a possibility I
will .....
Latest report I've seen says LFB attended and extinguished the fridge
fire that was reported in flat 14 or 16, as they were leaving they saw
fire spreading upwards possibly having jumped into the external
cladding.
we will see... there is so much speculation anything is possible .....
Brian Morrison
2017-06-20 15:30:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 16:29:38 +0100
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Morrison
On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 16:23:52 +0100
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
I have had more to do with fires and fire engineering than most
people ...from Glasgow airport, two shopping malls and many rain
screenings...not to mention attending major fires and
explosions..... so if I want to say a bomb making factory is a
possibility I will .....
Latest report I've seen says LFB attended and extinguished the
fridge fire that was reported in flat 14 or 16, as they were
leaving they saw fire spreading upwards possibly having jumped into
the external cladding.
we will see... there is so much speculation anything is
possible .....
This is what was on Panorama last night I think, I didn't watch it.
--
Brian Morrison
Brian Howie
2017-06-20 11:55:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Reay
Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his numbers, his
physics is correct.
It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas rather
than electricity to run it.
These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they are
still made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans etc. Caravan
fridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best, i.e.
lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate on propane,
they would function on natural gas but safety may well be an issue. They
have a flame.
It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas or
even caravan fridge was being used.
I had a gas fridge at home at one time. It worked very well and was
silent. When we were converted to natural gas ( shows how long ago) ,
the fitter didn't have any problem changing the burner, .The working
fluid was ammonia. I know that because it started leaking eventually and
the smell was quite distinct.

I have a friend who had one in Malta that worked on paraffin. They had
to turn it upside down every so often to keep it working.

Brian
--
Brian Howie
Brian Reay
2017-06-20 13:45:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Howie
Post by Brian Reay
Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his numbers, his
physics is correct.
It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas rather
than electricity to run it.
These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they are
still made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans etc. Caravan
fridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best, i.e.
lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate on propane,
they would function on natural gas but safety may well be an issue. They
have a flame.
It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas or
even caravan fridge was being used.
I had a gas fridge at home at one time. It worked very well and was
silent. When we were converted to natural gas ( shows how long ago) ,
the fitter didn't have any problem changing the burner, .The working
fluid was ammonia. I know that because it started leaking eventually and
the smell was quite distinct.
Ammonia was a common coolant at one time. I'm not sure if it is still used.
Post by Brian Howie
I have a friend who had one in Malta that worked on paraffin. They had
to turn it upside down every so often to keep it working.
That is not something I've heard of (using paraffin) but, as you only
need a source of heat, there is no reason it wouldn't work.

As for turning a fridge upside down, I seem to recall this was something
ammonia fridges could be 'revitalised' by doing from time to time. I'm
sure I knew the theory but I don't recall it.
Ian Jackson
2017-06-20 14:26:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Reay
As for turning a fridge upside down, I seem to recall this was
something ammonia fridges could be 'revitalised' by doing from time to
time. I'm sure I knew the theory but I don't recall it.
It's sounds like some fridge cooling systems can become 'air-locked',
and turning it over frees the bubble.
--
Ian
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-20 15:45:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Reay
As for turning a fridge upside down, I seem to recall this was something
ammonia fridges could be 'revitalised' by doing from time to time. I'm
sure I knew the theory but I don't recall it.
It's sounds like some fridge cooling systems can become 'air-locked', and
turning it over frees the bubble.
must be why they tell you not to switch on a fridge or freezer as soon as
you move it.......
Ian Jackson
2017-06-20 19:04:07 UTC
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Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Reay
As for turning a fridge upside down, I seem to recall this was something
ammonia fridges could be 'revitalised' by doing from time to time. I'm
sure I knew the theory but I don't recall it.
It's sounds like some fridge cooling systems can become 'air-locked', and
turning it over frees the bubble.
must be why they tell you not to switch on a fridge or freezer as soon as
you move it.......
Probably.
--
Ian
mm0fmf
2017-06-20 16:43:21 UTC
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Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Brian Reay
As for turning a fridge upside down, I seem to recall this was
something ammonia fridges could be 'revitalised' by doing from time to
time. I'm sure I knew the theory but I don't recall it.
It's sounds like some fridge cooling systems can become 'air-locked',
and turning it over frees the bubble.
Fixes modern fridges too. I've needed to do it to several mobile home/RV
fridges. The first time was quite a challenge in figuring out how to get
the fridge out especially as the vehicle was hired. Next time it needed
doing in a different vehicle we did it in a Parkplatz on the Authbahn
outside of Stuttgart. 45min job the second time.
FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
2017-07-02 21:57:23 UTC
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Post by Brian Reay
Post by Brian Howie
I have a friend who had one in Malta that worked on paraffin. They had to
turn it upside down every so often to keep it working.
That is not something I've heard of (using paraffin) but, as you only
need a source of heat, there is no reason it wouldn't work.
As for turning a fridge upside down, I seem to recall this was something
ammonia fridges could be 'revitalised' by doing from time to time. I'm
sure I knew the theory but I don't recall it.
Just remember to remove it from the caravan first.
--
;-)
.
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
.
http://turner-smith.uk
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-20 15:25:19 UTC
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Post by Brian Howie
Post by Brian Reay
Spike makes some good points, although I've not checked his numbers, his
physics is correct.
It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas rather
than electricity to run it.
These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they are
still made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans etc. Caravan
fridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best, i.e.
lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate on propane,
they would function on natural gas but safety may well be an issue. They
have a flame.
It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas or
even caravan fridge was being used.
I had a gas fridge at home at one time. It worked very well and was
silent. When we were converted to natural gas ( shows how long ago) , the
fitter didn't have any problem changing the burner, .The working fluid was
ammonia. I know that because it started leaking eventually and the smell
was quite distinct.
I have a friend who had one in Malta that worked on paraffin. They had to
turn it upside down every so often to keep it working.
Brian
bloody hell! .....
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-20 15:45:35 UTC
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Post by Brian Reay
It is always possible it was a gas fridge, i.e. one which used gas rather
than electricity to run it.
These used to be common, an aunt had one, but I'm not sure if they are
still made for the domestic market. They are used in caravans etc. Caravan
fridges run on gas, mains, and 12v. They supposedly operate best, i.e.
lowest temperature on gas. While they are designed to operate on propane,
they would function on natural gas but safety may well be an issue. They
have a flame.
It seems many on the residents were of limited means, perhaps an old gas or
even caravan fridge was being used.
well if they were using a camping or caravan gas fridge working on propane
or butane and there was a gas leak I am surprised the flat below didn't blow
up at the first spark or naked flame ......
Spike
2017-06-16 07:49:27 UTC
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Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Spike
The TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in London
mentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have been
called 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it was
replaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floor
not necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and if
it wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fast
spread of fire?
Why not wait until the facts are known? It is bad enough having the
'armchair experts' on the TV etc without you chipping in.
Have to agree with you there brian..no offence spike but the media are
filling time with the most crazy speculation.......
The problem you have with Reay's approach is that, for example, one then
believes the official version of events. One famous case resulted in a
verdict of suicide from a radial cut to the ulna artery, single
coproxamol tablet in the stomach, and very little blood at the scene -
none of which was judged credible by senior medical people - with the
police search for the victim starting 3 hours before he was reported
missing. Some people will believe anything they're told.
--
Spike
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-16 17:38:52 UTC
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Post by Brian Reay
Why not wait until the facts are known? It is bad enough having the
'armchair experts' on the TV etc without you chipping in.
yes I didn't know your buddy tomlinkinson was an "expert" on fire
safety...we will have photographers and IT people commenting next ......
lordgnome
2017-06-15 08:11:12 UTC
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Post by Spike
The TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in London
mentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have been
called 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it was
replaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floor
not necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and if
it wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fast
spread of fire?
Duuno, but I could never live in one of those tubes, even if the only
alternative was a mud hut! Glad some people manage it though, otherwise
think of all the additional countryside which would be concreted over.

Les.
Spike
2017-06-15 08:23:49 UTC
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Post by lordgnome
Post by Spike
The TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in London
mentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have been
called 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it was
replaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floor
not necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and if
it wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fast
spread of fire?
Duuno, but I could never live in one of those tubes, even if the only
alternative was a mud hut! Glad some people manage it though, otherwise
think of all the additional countryside which would be concreted over.
There are rumours about that suggest that the 'environmental
performance' of the block was given high priority.
--
Spike
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-15 08:33:34 UTC
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Post by lordgnome
Post by Spike
The TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in London
mentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have been
called 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it was
replaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floor
not necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and if
it wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fast
spread of fire?
Duuno, but I could never live in one of those tubes, even if the only
alternative was a mud hut! Glad some people manage it though, otherwise
think of all the additional countryside which would be concreted over.
There are rumours about that suggest that the 'environmental performance'
of the block was given high priority.
always said that the ridiculously high level of insulation and SAP ratings
demanded by the EU would cause problems ....they should go back to U value
for wall 1 and roofs .6 ...end of problems ......
Brian Reay
2017-06-15 09:44:26 UTC
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Post by lordgnome
Duuno, but I could never live in one of those tubes, even if the only
alternative was a mud hut! Glad some people manage it though, otherwise
think of all the additional countryside which would be concreted over.
Les.
It is interesting that some of the old tower blocks dismissed as virtual
'slums' were sold off, refurbished, and have become very desirable
residences.

Likewise, not far from here, there are some very attractive tower blocks
which are not only expensive but very popular.

If you watch some of the documentaries which interview the early
residents of the blocks, who moved from houses with no indoor toilets
etc, they speak very highly of them.

Of course, not everyone likes living in a city, it isn't my idea of fun
but some prefer it. Equally, others wouldn't like to live in the
countryside. Each to his own.
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-15 09:58:33 UTC
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Post by Brian Reay
Post by lordgnome
Duuno, but I could never live in one of those tubes, even if the only
alternative was a mud hut! Glad some people manage it though, otherwise
think of all the additional countryside which would be concreted over.
Les.
It is interesting that some of the old tower blocks dismissed as virtual
'slums' were sold off, refurbished, and have become very desirable
residences.
always said it is not the buildings fault just the people who have to live
in social housing ......
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-15 10:16:31 UTC
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Post by Brian Reay
Post by lordgnome
Duuno, but I could never live in one of those tubes, even if the only
alternative was a mud hut! Glad some people manage it though, otherwise
think of all the additional countryside which would be concreted over.
Les.
It is interesting that some of the old tower blocks dismissed as virtual
'slums' were sold off, refurbished, and have become very desirable
residences.
Likewise, not far from here, there are some very attractive tower blocks
which are not only expensive but very popular.
If you watch some of the documentaries which interview the early residents
of the blocks, who moved from houses with no indoor toilets etc, they
speak very highly of them.
Of course, not everyone likes living in a city, it isn't my idea of fun
but some prefer it. Equally, others wouldn't like to live in the
countryside. Each to his own.
always said it is not the buildings fault just the people who have to live
in social housing ......
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-15 10:21:31 UTC
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Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Reay
Post by lordgnome
Duuno, but I could never live in one of those tubes, even if the only
alternative was a mud hut! Glad some people manage it though, otherwise
think of all the additional countryside which would be concreted over.
Les.
It is interesting that some of the old tower blocks dismissed as virtual
'slums' were sold off, refurbished, and have become very desirable
residences.
Likewise, not far from here, there are some very attractive tower blocks
which are not only expensive but very popular.
If you watch some of the documentaries which interview the early
residents of the blocks, who moved from houses with no indoor toilets
etc, they speak very highly of them.
Of course, not everyone likes living in a city, it isn't my idea of fun
but some prefer it. Equally, others wouldn't like to live in the
countryside. Each to his own.
always said it is not the buildings fault just the people who have to live
in social housing ......
but then again give a tenant defensable space and it works ....that is why
the areas around flats are battlezones ....but then again they only put
older people in the high flats on the other side of the m8 from here and
with concierges it works ....so young scumbags are to blame most of the
time......
FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
2017-06-15 19:22:22 UTC
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Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Reay
Post by lordgnome
Duuno, but I could never live in one of those tubes, even if the only
alternative was a mud hut! Glad some people manage it though, otherwise
think of all the additional countryside which would be concreted over.
Les.
It is interesting that some of the old tower blocks dismissed as virtual
'slums' were sold off, refurbished, and have become very desirable
residences.
Likewise, not far from here, there are some very attractive tower blocks
which are not only expensive but very popular.
If you watch some of the documentaries which interview the early
residents of the blocks, who moved from houses with no indoor toilets
etc, they speak very highly of them.
Of course, not everyone likes living in a city, it isn't my idea of fun
but some prefer it. Equally, others wouldn't like to live in the
countryside. Each to his own.
always said it is not the buildings fault just the people who have to live
in social housing ......
but then again give a tenant defensable space and it works ....that is why
the areas around flats are battlezones ....but then again they only put
older people in the high flats on the other side of the m8 from here and
with concierges it works ....so young scumbags are to blame most of the
time......
Maybe old scumbags have learnt how to get away with more.
--
;-)
.
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
.
http://turner-smith.uk
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-15 09:44:18 UTC
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Post by Spike
The TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in London
mentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have been
called 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it was
replaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floor
not necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and if
it wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fast
spread of fire?
I don't think that a fire stop would have stopped that
fire......overcladding is just an inherantly bad idea in high rise buildings
.....
Rambo
2017-06-15 21:42:04 UTC
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On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 10:44:18 +0100, "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Spike
The TV news yesterday regarding the fire in the block of flats in London
mentioned that during the refurbishment something that might have been
called 'fire stop' was removed from between the floors. Doubtless it was
replaced, but the suspicion is that the fire spread from floor to floor
not necessarily via the cladding. What is this 'fire stop' stuff. and if
it wasn't there or nor properly replaced, could that account for a fast
spread of fire?
I don't think that a fire stop would have stopped that
fire......overcladding is just an inherantly bad idea in high rise buildings
.....
A fire stop is usually a double layer of sealed mineral fibre board
placed in pipe/cable risers at every floor or entry point. Having
experienced the gale that can blow through these risers, if the
stopping was not done properly then yes a rapid spread of fire can
result.
Brian Morrison
2017-06-16 12:03:02 UTC
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On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 22:42:04 +0100
Post by Rambo
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
I don't think that a fire stop would have stopped that
fire......overcladding is just an inherantly bad idea in high rise
buildings .....
A fire stop is usually a double layer of sealed mineral fibre board
placed in pipe/cable risers at every floor or entry point. Having
experienced the gale that can blow through these risers, if the
stopping was not done properly then yes a rapid spread of fire can
result.
I read this morning that the tenant of the flat where a refrigerator
fire started this off woke his neighbour at 12.50am to tell her to
evacuate. She stated that the fire was small, and just in the kitchen,
so that it could have been contained except that the flat doors onto
the corridor/landing were all open and she could see the fire from her
flat door.

Are these front doors not required to be self-closing and fire
resistant? I would have thought that an extinguisher or two should have
been enough to put this out once the power was turned off.
--
Brian Morrison
lordgnome
2017-06-16 13:32:08 UTC
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Post by Brian Morrison
Are these front doors not required to be self-closing and fire
resistant? I would have thought that an extinguisher or two should have
been enough to put this out once the power was turned off.
In the olden days, factory staff used to be trained in fire drill and
numerous extinguishers were placed at strategic positions. On to the
90's and a colleague asked the building supervisor what had happened to
fire drill and training in the use of the different devices.

It transpired that they had been 'advised' by the fire brigade that the
new line of thinking was that you did not try to contain a fire, but
just got out leaving it to burn. I love these 'experts'.

On another occasion in the 80's we ran a small business in a former
railway station. The fire inspection report concluded that the doors to
the platform should open outwards. Clearly impossible, due to the
presence of stone cornicing. Another recommendation was that an upstairs
window should be locked, despite this being one of the safest exit
points onto a low roof.

So, I wonder if there were no extinguishers in the tower block
available due to the 'modern thinking'.
I wonder if the reason the cladding was added/chosen to meet an EU
target of 'sustainability'.

Les.
Stephen Thomas Troll
2017-06-16 14:17:15 UTC
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Post by lordgnome
So, I wonder if there were no extinguishers in the tower block
available due to the 'modern thinking'.
I wonder if the reason the cladding was added/chosen to meet an EU
target of 'sustainability'.
The cladding was likely shoddily installed by swarthy foreigners who were
too busy smoking dope, reading the Guardian and/or daydreaming about
homosexual practices to do a decent British job of it, Les.
Brian Howie
2017-06-21 12:00:12 UTC
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In message <oi0me4$rru$***@dont-email.me>, lordgnome <***@nospam.null>
writes
Post by lordgnome
I wonder if the reason the cladding was added/chosen to meet an EU
target of 'sustainability'.
No it's because it's cheaper than marble.

Loading Image...

Brian
--
Brian Howie
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-21 18:29:59 UTC
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Post by Brian Howie
writes
Post by lordgnome
I wonder if the reason the cladding was added/chosen to meet an EU
target of 'sustainability'.
No it's because it's cheaper than marble.
Http://www.williamkent.co.uk/photos/418x378-bound/library/TEC.169.jpg
Brian
after the coming huge pay offs I'm sure it is .....
manuel czech
2017-06-30 16:06:42 UTC
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Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Howie
writes
Post by lordgnome
I wonder if the reason the cladding was added/chosen to meet an EU
target of 'sustainability'.
No it's because it's cheaper than marble.
Http://www.williamkent.co.uk/photos/418x378-bound/library/TEC.169.jpg
Brian
after the coming huge pay offs I'm sure it is .....
yep
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-16 17:11:46 UTC
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Post by Brian Morrison
Are these front doors not required to be self-closing and fire
resistant?
yes but I know of hundreds of fire doors into flats that have been replaced
with plastic doors with ordinary glass panels .......people don't give a
shit other than they want a door that THEY like .....we gave up chasing them
in most cases ....
FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
2017-06-16 18:03:45 UTC
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Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Morrison
Are these front doors not required to be self-closing and fire
resistant?
yes but I know of hundreds of fire doors into flats that have been
replaced with plastic doors with ordinary glass panels .......people don't
give a shit other than they want a door that THEY like .....we gave up
chasing them in most cases ....
How many ask for steel reinforced doors that the plods can't KicK in?
--
;-)
.
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
.
http://turner-smith.uk
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-16 18:54:16 UTC
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Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Brian Morrison
Are these front doors not required to be self-closing and fire
resistant?
yes but I know of hundreds of fire doors into flats that have been
replaced with plastic doors with ordinary glass panels .......people
don't give a shit other than they want a door that THEY like .....we gave
up chasing them in most cases ....
How many ask for steel reinforced doors that the plods can't KicK in?
seen a good few metal gates..usualy drug dealers ....
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-06-20 21:10:24 UTC
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http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15359435.No_Scottish_council_high_rise_flats_have_same_cladding_as_Grenfell_Tower/

woo hoo no jail for me .......
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