Discussion:
Full wave antennae on 137kHz?
(too old to reply)
Gareth's Downstairs Computer
2017-07-20 19:14:24 UTC
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Drove onto the field on Tuesday and was dismayed to
see a big banner marked Tomlinson, which portended
a bum job, but it turned out to be a scorcher being
a fence judge at the Dauntsey horse trials.

Taking my cue from the coupling loop that feeds a
mag loop antenna, and sitting pretty much under
the 400kV pylon line, I wondered about the possibility
of using a loop to couple into the electricity grid and
so giving the equivalent of a Beverage at 137kHz?
Graham.
2017-07-21 19:01:34 UTC
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On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 20:14:24 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Drove onto the field on Tuesday and was dismayed to
see a big banner marked Tomlinson, which portended
a bum job, but it turned out to be a scorcher being
a fence judge at the Dauntsey horse trials.
Taking my cue from the coupling loop that feeds a
mag loop antenna, and sitting pretty much under
the 400kV pylon line, I wondered about the possibility
of using a loop to couple into the electricity grid and
so giving the equivalent of a Beverage at 137kHz?
If it does work, reciprocity is right out of the window.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Michael Black
2017-07-22 00:13:14 UTC
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Drove onto the field on Tuesday and was dismayed to
see a big banner marked Tomlinson, which portended
a bum job, but it turned out to be a scorcher being
a fence judge at the Dauntsey horse trials.
Taking my cue from the coupling loop that feeds a
mag loop antenna, and sitting pretty much under
the 400kV pylon line, I wondered about the possibility
of using a loop to couple into the electricity grid and
so giving the equivalent of a Beverage at 137kHz?
COnsidering that in the US the LF bands aren't yet available because they
need to deal with the power company using low frequencies over the power
line, you might end up causing interference.

But also, there was all that power line communication in the past
(university radio stations, intercomes, remote speakers and I forget what
else) but it stayed mostly on the power line. You needed to be relatively
close to the AC wiring to get the signal. Though maybe long distance
power lines are different.

Aren't you more likely to have success using a fence around a farm?
Though you need the right location, and maybe the right neighbors.


But what did they do in the old days? Everyone was down below the current
AM broadcast band in the early days, which is why hams were banished to
the "useless" shortwave frequencies. Did they have full length antennas
back then, or make do? They did try for long antennas but surely many
couldn't fit a full length antenna. But I'm sure lots of magazines from
the early days would turn up useful things, if you've got the space.

Michael
Bob Wilson
2017-07-25 18:58:27 UTC
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Drove onto the field on Tuesday and was dismayed to
see a big banner marked Tomlinson, which portended
a bum job, but it turned out to be a scorcher being
a fence judge at the Dauntsey horse trials.
Taking my cue from the coupling loop that feeds a
mag loop antenna, and sitting pretty much under
the 400kV pylon line, I wondered about the possibility
of using a loop to couple into the electricity grid and
so giving the equivalent of a Beverage at 137kHz?
There is a lot yet to be fully understood about access to the LF bands
in the US. But if you are under a HV line, they might well be using the
line for carrying control signals for the power grid. The technology,
PLC, doesn't play nicely with ham usage.

How do you find whether a power line is using PLC? For some reason you
can't find anywhere a list of places that are OK, or that are not OK.
Instead you have go to a website and ask, and wait to be told yes or no.
So we (the hams) are in second place when it comes to sending
information over these lines.

(There is a fairly new line at something like 250KV close to my back
yard. I don't yet know whether it is carrying PLC.)
Bob Wilson, WA9D
Gareth's Downstairs Computer
2017-07-25 19:12:08 UTC
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Post by Bob Wilson
There is a lot yet to be fully understood about access to the LF bands
in the US. But if you are under a HV line, they might well be using the
line for carrying control signals for the power grid. The technology,
PLC, doesn't play nicely with ham usage.
If I remember correctly from my time working on the design of
grid control systems (40 years and counting), it's known as
Pilot Protection and its loss may be the first indication of
a line going down.
j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
2017-07-25 19:04:55 UTC
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Drove onto the field on Tuesday and was dismayed to
see a big banner marked Tomlinson, which portended
a bum job, but it turned out to be a scorcher being
a fence judge at the Dauntsey horse trials.
Taking my cue from the coupling loop that feeds a
mag loop antenna, and sitting pretty much under
the 400kV pylon line, I wondered about the possibility
of using a loop to couple into the electricity grid and
so giving the equivalent of a Beverage at 137kHz?
In most places using someone else's property without permission is concidered
a bad thing to do.
--
Jim Pennino
Gareth's Downstairs Computer
2017-07-25 20:06:45 UTC
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Drove onto the field on Tuesday and was dismayed to
see a big banner marked Tomlinson, which portended
a bum job, but it turned out to be a scorcher being
a fence judge at the Dauntsey horse trials.
Taking my cue from the coupling loop that feeds a
mag loop antenna, and sitting pretty much under
the 400kV pylon line, I wondered about the possibility
of using a loop to couple into the electricity grid and
so giving the equivalent of a Beverage at 137kHz?
In most places using someone else's property without permission is concidered
a bad thing to do.
How do you prevent your transmissions from passing through the
airspace of the countless millions whose permission you have not sought?
j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
2017-07-25 21:07:43 UTC
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Drove onto the field on Tuesday and was dismayed to
see a big banner marked Tomlinson, which portended
a bum job, but it turned out to be a scorcher being
a fence judge at the Dauntsey horse trials.
Taking my cue from the coupling loop that feeds a
mag loop antenna, and sitting pretty much under
the 400kV pylon line, I wondered about the possibility
of using a loop to couple into the electricity grid and
so giving the equivalent of a Beverage at 137kHz?
In most places using someone else's property without permission is concidered
a bad thing to do.
How do you prevent your transmissions from passing through the
airspace of the countless millions whose permission you have not sought?
A very different thing than "using a loop to couple into the electricity grid".
--
Jim Pennino
Gareth's Downstairs Computer
2017-07-25 21:50:44 UTC
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Drove onto the field on Tuesday and was dismayed to
see a big banner marked Tomlinson, which portended
a bum job, but it turned out to be a scorcher being
a fence judge at the Dauntsey horse trials.
Taking my cue from the coupling loop that feeds a
mag loop antenna, and sitting pretty much under
the 400kV pylon line, I wondered about the possibility
of using a loop to couple into the electricity grid and
so giving the equivalent of a Beverage at 137kHz?
In most places using someone else's property without permission is concidered
a bad thing to do.
How do you prevent your transmissions from passing through the
airspace of the countless millions whose permission you have not sought?
A very different thing than "using a loop to couple into the electricity grid".
Pretty much the same; using others' property to radiate.
j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
2017-07-25 22:09:29 UTC
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Drove onto the field on Tuesday and was dismayed to
see a big banner marked Tomlinson, which portended
a bum job, but it turned out to be a scorcher being
a fence judge at the Dauntsey horse trials.
Taking my cue from the coupling loop that feeds a
mag loop antenna, and sitting pretty much under
the 400kV pylon line, I wondered about the possibility
of using a loop to couple into the electricity grid and
so giving the equivalent of a Beverage at 137kHz?
In most places using someone else's property without permission is concidered
a bad thing to do.
How do you prevent your transmissions from passing through the
airspace of the countless millions whose permission you have not sought?
A very different thing than "using a loop to couple into the electricity grid".
Pretty much the same; using others' property to radiate.
Not at all.
--
Jim Pennino
Brian Reay
2017-07-25 23:00:31 UTC
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Drove onto the field on Tuesday and was dismayed to
see a big banner marked Tomlinson, which portended
a bum job, but it turned out to be a scorcher being
a fence judge at the Dauntsey horse trials.
Taking my cue from the coupling loop that feeds a
mag loop antenna, and sitting pretty much under
the 400kV pylon line, I wondered about the possibility
of using a loop to couple into the electricity grid and
so giving the equivalent of a Beverage at 137kHz?
In most places using someone else's property without permission is concidered
a bad thing to do.
How do you prevent your transmissions from passing through the
airspace of the countless millions whose permission you have not sought?
A very different thing than "using a loop to couple into the electricity grid".
Pretty much the same; using others' property to radiate.
Not at all.
I expect he will use his 'diplomatic skills' to get permission to use
the cables when he asks Power Gen to lower the pylons (the cables are
too hire for a Beverage) and install the required terminating resistors.
The latter will be a challenge, the typical value is 400 ohm. 400kV
lines, V^2/R.....

One of those germane technical topics he is so keen on ;-)
--
Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud
Gareth's Downstairs Computer
2017-07-26 09:19:17 UTC
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Drove onto the field on Tuesday and was dismayed to
see a big banner marked Tomlinson, which portended
a bum job, but it turned out to be a scorcher being
a fence judge at the Dauntsey horse trials.
Taking my cue from the coupling loop that feeds a
mag loop antenna, and sitting pretty much under
the 400kV pylon line, I wondered about the possibility
of using a loop to couple into the electricity grid and
so giving the equivalent of a Beverage at 137kHz?
In most places using someone else's property without permission is concidered
a bad thing to do.
How do you prevent your transmissions from passing through the
airspace of the countless millions whose permission you have not sought?
A very different thing than "using a loop to couple into the electricity grid".
Pretty much the same; using others' property to radiate.
Not at all.
Well, we've both made our positions clear and there is no common
ground between us. Let's leave it there.
j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
2017-07-26 16:58:32 UTC
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Drove onto the field on Tuesday and was dismayed to
see a big banner marked Tomlinson, which portended
a bum job, but it turned out to be a scorcher being
a fence judge at the Dauntsey horse trials.
Taking my cue from the coupling loop that feeds a
mag loop antenna, and sitting pretty much under
the 400kV pylon line, I wondered about the possibility
of using a loop to couple into the electricity grid and
so giving the equivalent of a Beverage at 137kHz?
In most places using someone else's property without permission is concidered
a bad thing to do.
How do you prevent your transmissions from passing through the
airspace of the countless millions whose permission you have not sought?
A very different thing than "using a loop to couple into the electricity grid".
Pretty much the same; using others' property to radiate.
Not at all.
Well, we've both made our positions clear and there is no common
ground between us. Let's leave it there.
Yeah, right, using my own antennas on my own land is just the same as
going onto the utility easment and setting up equipment to use the utilities
equipment.
--
Jim Pennino
Gareth's Downstairs Computer
2017-07-26 17:48:57 UTC
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Drove onto the field on Tuesday and was dismayed to
see a big banner marked Tomlinson, which portended
a bum job, but it turned out to be a scorcher being
a fence judge at the Dauntsey horse trials.
Taking my cue from the coupling loop that feeds a
mag loop antenna, and sitting pretty much under
the 400kV pylon line, I wondered about the possibility
of using a loop to couple into the electricity grid and
so giving the equivalent of a Beverage at 137kHz?
In most places using someone else's property without permission is concidered
a bad thing to do.
How do you prevent your transmissions from passing through the
airspace of the countless millions whose permission you have not sought?
A very different thing than "using a loop to couple into the electricity grid".
Pretty much the same; using others' property to radiate.
Not at all.
Well, we've both made our positions clear and there is no common
ground between us. Let's leave it there.
Yeah, right, using my own antennas on my own land is just the same as
going onto the utility easment and setting up equipment to use the utilities
equipment.
ITYM, "antennae"
j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
2017-07-26 18:24:11 UTC
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Drove onto the field on Tuesday and was dismayed to
see a big banner marked Tomlinson, which portended
a bum job, but it turned out to be a scorcher being
a fence judge at the Dauntsey horse trials.
Taking my cue from the coupling loop that feeds a
mag loop antenna, and sitting pretty much under
the 400kV pylon line, I wondered about the possibility
of using a loop to couple into the electricity grid and
so giving the equivalent of a Beverage at 137kHz?
In most places using someone else's property without permission is concidered
a bad thing to do.
How do you prevent your transmissions from passing through the
airspace of the countless millions whose permission you have not sought?
A very different thing than "using a loop to couple into the electricity grid".
Pretty much the same; using others' property to radiate.
Not at all.
Well, we've both made our positions clear and there is no common
ground between us. Let's leave it there.
Yeah, right, using my own antennas on my own land is just the same as
going onto the utility easment and setting up equipment to use the utilities
equipment.
ITYM, "antennae"
It is "antennas" for the things connected to radios and "antennae" for
things connected to insects and arthopods even in the UK, not just in the
US, according to Collins English Dictionary.
--
Jim Pennino
Gareth's Downstairs Computer
2017-07-26 20:16:02 UTC
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Drove onto the field on Tuesday and was dismayed to
see a big banner marked Tomlinson, which portended
a bum job, but it turned out to be a scorcher being
a fence judge at the Dauntsey horse trials.
Taking my cue from the coupling loop that feeds a
mag loop antenna, and sitting pretty much under
the 400kV pylon line, I wondered about the possibility
of using a loop to couple into the electricity grid and
so giving the equivalent of a Beverage at 137kHz?
In most places using someone else's property without permission is concidered
a bad thing to do.
How do you prevent your transmissions from passing through the
airspace of the countless millions whose permission you have not sought?
A very different thing than "using a loop to couple into the electricity grid".
Pretty much the same; using others' property to radiate.
Not at all.
Well, we've both made our positions clear and there is no common
ground between us. Let's leave it there.
Yeah, right, using my own antennas on my own land is just the same as
going onto the utility easment and setting up equipment to use the utilities
equipment.
ITYM, "antennae"
It is "antennas" for the things connected to radios and "antennae" for
things connected to insects and arthopods even in the UK, not just in the
US, according to Collins English Dictionary.
Try a dictionary for grownups such as the OED and not one
targetted at disuptive children.
Custos Custodum
2017-07-26 20:34:17 UTC
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On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 21:16:02 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
It is "antennas" for the things connected to radios and "antennae" for
things connected to insects and arthopods even in the UK, not just in the
US, according to Collins English Dictionary.
Try a dictionary for grownups such as the OED and not one
targetted at disuptive children.
Your wish is my command. From OED3, March 2016:

antenna, n.
View as: Outline |Full entryKeywords: On |Off
Quotations: Show all |Hide all
Pronunciation: Brit. /an't?n?/, U.S. /æn't?n?/
Frequency (in current use):
Inflections: Pl. antennae, (esp. in sense 4) antennas.
Origin: A borrowing from Latin. Etymons: Latin antenna, antemna,
Italian antenna.
Etymology: < classical Latin antenna, earlier antemna... (Show More)

4. A wire, rod, or other structure by which airborne radio waves are
transmitted or received, usually as part of a radio or television
transmission or receiving system; = aerial n. 3.

1902—2013(Show quotations)
Roger Hayter
2017-07-26 22:46:00 UTC
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Post by Custos Custodum
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 21:16:02 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
It is "antennas" for the things connected to radios and "antennae" for
things connected to insects and arthopods even in the UK, not just in the
US, according to Collins English Dictionary.
Try a dictionary for grownups such as the OED and not one
targetted at disuptive children.
antenna, n.
View as: Outline |Full entryKeywords: On |Off
Quotations: Show all |Hide all
Pronunciation: Brit. /an't?n?/, U.S. /æn't?n?/
Inflections: Pl. antennae, (esp. in sense 4) antennas.
Origin: A borrowing from Latin. Etymons: Latin antenna, antemna,
Italian antenna.
Etymology: < classical Latin antenna, earlier antemna... (Show More)
4. A wire, rod, or other structure by which airborne radio waves are
transmitted or received, usually as part of a radio or television
transmission or receiving system; = aerial n. 3.
1902˜2013(Show quotations)
Interpreting that, it does bear out Gareth's theory that antennae is the
original plural but says that antennas is also used "especially" with
radio aerials. So the conclusion I draw is that both are correct but
that antennas is growing in popularity.
--
Roger Hayter
Brian Reay
2017-07-26 22:54:59 UTC
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Post by Custos Custodum
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 21:16:02 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
It is "antennas" for the things connected to radios and "antennae" for
things connected to insects and arthopods even in the UK, not just in the
US, according to Collins English Dictionary.
Try a dictionary for grownups such as the OED and not one
targetted at disuptive children.
antenna, n.
View as: Outline |Full entryKeywords: On |Off
Quotations: Show all |Hide all
Pronunciation: Brit. /an't?n?/, U.S. /æn't?n?/
Inflections: Pl. antennae, (esp. in sense 4) antennas.
Origin: A borrowing from Latin. Etymons: Latin antenna, antemna,
Italian antenna.
Etymology: < classical Latin antenna, earlier antemna... (Show More)
4. A wire, rod, or other structure by which airborne radio waves are
transmitted or received, usually as part of a radio or television
transmission or receiving system; = aerial n. 3.
1902˜2013(Show quotations)
Interpreting that, it does bear out Gareth's theory that antennae is the
original plural but says that antennas is also used "especially" with
radio aerials. So the conclusion I draw is that both are correct but
that antennas is growing in popularity.
No, it confirms the converse.
--
Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud
Roger Hayter
2017-07-26 23:06:21 UTC
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Post by Custos Custodum
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 21:16:02 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
It is "antennas" for the things connected to radios and "antennae" for
things connected to insects and arthopods even in the UK, not just in the
US, according to Collins English Dictionary.
Try a dictionary for grownups such as the OED and not one
targetted at disuptive children.
antenna, n.
View as: Outline |Full entryKeywords: On |Off
Quotations: Show all |Hide all
Pronunciation: Brit. /an't?n?/, U.S. /æn't?n?/
Inflections: Pl. antennae, (esp. in sense 4) antennas.
Origin: A borrowing from Latin. Etymons: Latin antenna, antemna,
Italian antenna.
Etymology: < classical Latin antenna, earlier antemna... (Show More)
4. A wire, rod, or other structure by which airborne radio waves are
transmitted or received, usually as part of a radio or television
transmission or receiving system; = aerial n. 3.
1902˜2013(Show quotations)
Interpreting that, it does bear out Gareth's theory that antennae is the
original plural but says that antennas is also used "especially" with
radio aerials. So the conclusion I draw is that both are correct but
that antennas is growing in popularity.
No, it confirms the converse.
You mean that antennas was original, but antennae is growing in
popularity????
--
Roger Hayter
Brian Reay
2017-07-26 23:19:59 UTC
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Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Custos Custodum
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 21:16:02 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
It is "antennas" for the things connected to radios and "antennae" for
things connected to insects and arthopods even in the UK, not just in the
US, according to Collins English Dictionary.
Try a dictionary for grownups such as the OED and not one
targetted at disuptive children.
antenna, n.
View as: Outline |Full entryKeywords: On |Off
Quotations: Show all |Hide all
Pronunciation: Brit. /an't?n?/, U.S. /æn't?n?/
Inflections: Pl. antennae, (esp. in sense 4) antennas.
Origin: A borrowing from Latin. Etymons: Latin antenna, antemna,
Italian antenna.
Etymology: < classical Latin antenna, earlier antemna... (Show More)
4. A wire, rod, or other structure by which airborne radio waves are
transmitted or received, usually as part of a radio or television
transmission or receiving system; = aerial n. 3.
1902˜2013(Show quotations)
Interpreting that, it does bear out Gareth's theory that antennae is the
original plural but says that antennas is also used "especially" with
radio aerials. So the conclusion I draw is that both are correct but
that antennas is growing in popularity.
No, it confirms the converse.
You mean that antennas was original, but antennae is growing in
popularity????
Are you trying to usurp Evans as the village idiot?

Hint, there is no mention of 'growing popularity' of either- it is clear
they mean antennas is used for RF antennas.
--
Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud
Roger Hayter
2017-07-26 23:39:28 UTC
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On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 21:16:02 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
It is "antennas" for the things connected to radios and "antennae"
for things connected to insects and arthopods even in the UK, not
just in the US, according to Collins English Dictionary.
Try a dictionary for grownups such as the OED and not one
targetted at disuptive children.
antenna, n.
View as: Outline |Full entryKeywords: On |Off
Quotations: Show all |Hide all
Pronunciation: Brit. /an't?n?/, U.S. /æn't?n?/
Inflections: Pl. antennae, (esp. in sense 4) antennas.
Origin: A borrowing from Latin. Etymons: Latin antenna, antemna,
Italian antenna.
Etymology: < classical Latin antenna, earlier antemna... (Show More)
4. A wire, rod, or other structure by which airborne radio waves are
transmitted or received, usually as part of a radio or television
transmission or receiving system; = aerial n. 3.
1902˜2013(Show quotations)
Interpreting that, it does bear out Gareth's theory that antennae is the
original plural but says that antennas is also used "especially" with
radio aerials. So the conclusion I draw is that both are correct but
that antennas is growing in popularity.
No, it confirms the converse.
You mean that antennas was original, but antennae is growing in
popularity????
Are you trying to usurp Evans as the village idiot?
Hint, there is no mention of 'growing popularity' of either- it is clear
they mean antennas is used for RF antennas.
It is really not my fault if you use the word converse when you don't
know what it means. The dictionary says that antennas is a second
variant 'especially' used for radio aerials, it certainly doesn't say it
is exclusive usage in this context. Growing popularity is from my own
observation of the literature, antennae is widely used in UK 1930s
publications.

And I do resent pompous twats who can barely speak English calling *me*
an idiot.
--
Roger Hayter
rickman
2017-07-26 23:57:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Custos Custodum
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 21:16:02 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
It is "antennas" for the things connected to radios and "antennae"
for things connected to insects and arthopods even in the UK, not
just in the US, according to Collins English Dictionary.
Try a dictionary for grownups such as the OED and not one
targetted at disuptive children.
antenna, n.
View as: Outline |Full entryKeywords: On |Off
Quotations: Show all |Hide all
Pronunciation: Brit. /an't?n?/, U.S. /æn't?n?/
Inflections: Pl. antennae, (esp. in sense 4) antennas.
Origin: A borrowing from Latin. Etymons: Latin antenna, antemna,
Italian antenna.
Etymology: < classical Latin antenna, earlier antemna... (Show More)
4. A wire, rod, or other structure by which airborne radio waves are
transmitted or received, usually as part of a radio or television
transmission or receiving system; = aerial n. 3.
1902˜2013(Show quotations)
Interpreting that, it does bear out Gareth's theory that antennae is the
original plural but says that antennas is also used "especially" with
radio aerials. So the conclusion I draw is that both are correct but
that antennas is growing in popularity.
No, it confirms the converse.
You mean that antennas was original, but antennae is growing in
popularity????
Are you trying to usurp Evans as the village idiot?
Hint, there is no mention of 'growing popularity' of either- it is clear
they mean antennas is used for RF antennas.
It is really not my fault if you use the word converse when you don't
know what it means. The dictionary says that antennas is a second
variant 'especially' used for radio aerials, it certainly doesn't say it
is exclusive usage in this context. Growing popularity is from my own
observation of the literature, antennae is widely used in UK 1930s
publications.
And I do resent pompous twats who can barely speak English calling *me*
an idiot.
You do realize this is a newsgroup, no? An amateur radio newsgroup at that.
You expect people like these to be respectful?
--
Rick C
Roger Hayter
2017-07-27 00:12:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
snip
Post by rickman
Post by Roger Hayter
It is really not my fault if you use the word converse when you don't
know what it means. The dictionary says that antennas is a second
variant 'especially' used for radio aerials, it certainly doesn't say it
is exclusive usage in this context. Growing popularity is from my own
observation of the literature, antennae is widely used in UK 1930s
publications.
And I do resent pompous twats who can barely speak English calling *me*
an idiot.
You do realize this is a newsgroup, no? An amateur radio newsgroup at that.
You expect people like these to be respectful?
I'm an optimist living in a constant state of disappointment. But,
seriously, while Gareth is 70 years (and a major war with technical
cooperation on the allied side) too late to get rid of 'antennas', there
is also a respectable history of use of 'antennae' in a radio context,
albeit a dying usage.
--
Roger Hayter
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-07-27 06:39:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
You do realise this is a newsgroup, no? An amateur radio newsgroup at
that.
You expect people like these to be respectful?
don't be silly ....
Brian Reay
2017-07-27 08:30:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by rickman
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Custos Custodum
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 21:16:02 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
It is "antennas" for the things connected to radios and "antennae"
for things connected to insects and arthopods even in the UK, not
just in the US, according to Collins English Dictionary.
Try a dictionary for grownups such as the OED and not one
targetted at disuptive children.
antenna, n.
View as: Outline |Full entryKeywords: On |Off
Quotations: Show all |Hide all
Pronunciation: Brit. /an't?n?/, U.S. /æn't?n?/
Inflections: Pl. antennae, (esp. in sense 4) antennas.
Origin: A borrowing from Latin. Etymons: Latin antenna, antemna,
Italian antenna.
Etymology: < classical Latin antenna, earlier antemna... (Show More)
4. A wire, rod, or other structure by which airborne radio waves are
transmitted or received, usually as part of a radio or television
transmission or receiving system; = aerial n. 3.
1902˜2013(Show quotations)
Interpreting that, it does bear out Gareth's theory that antennae is the
original plural but says that antennas is also used "especially" with
radio aerials. So the conclusion I draw is that both are correct but
that antennas is growing in popularity.
No, it confirms the converse.
You mean that antennas was original, but antennae is growing in
popularity????
Are you trying to usurp Evans as the village idiot?
Hint, there is no mention of 'growing popularity' of either- it is clear
they mean antennas is used for RF antennas.
It is really not my fault if you use the word converse when you don't
know what it means. The dictionary says that antennas is a second
variant 'especially' used for radio aerials, it certainly doesn't say it
is exclusive usage in this context. Growing popularity is from my own
observation of the literature, antennae is widely used in UK 1930s
publications.
And I do resent pompous twats who can barely speak English calling *me*
an idiot.
You do realize this is a newsgroup, no? An amateur radio newsgroup at
that. You expect people like these to be respectful?
Roger is one of Evans' chums, that explains his behaviour and language.

It seems he may be trying to usurp Evans as the village idiot.
--
Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-07-27 06:38:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roger Hayter
And I do resent pompous twats who can barely speak English calling *me*
an idiot.
spot on OM ....
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-07-27 06:46:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Custos Custodum
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 21:16:02 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
It is "antennas" for the things connected to radios and "antennae"
for things connected to insects and arthopods even in the UK, not
just in the US, according to Collins English Dictionary.
Try a dictionary for grownups such as the OED and not one
targetted at disuptive children.
antenna, n.
View as: Outline |Full entryKeywords: On |Off
Quotations: Show all |Hide all
Pronunciation: Brit. /an't?n?/, U.S. /æn't?n?/
Inflections: Pl. antennae, (esp. in sense 4) antennas.
Origin: A borrowing from Latin. Etymons: Latin antenna, antemna,
Italian antenna.
Etymology: < classical Latin antenna, earlier antemna... (Show More)
4. A wire, rod, or other structure by which airborne radio waves are
transmitted or received, usually as part of a radio or television
transmission or receiving system; = aerial n. 3.
1902~2013(Show quotations)
Interpreting that, it does bear out Gareth's theory that antennae is the
original plural but says that antennas is also used "especially" with
radio aerials. So the conclusion I draw is that both are correct but
that antennas is growing in popularity.
No, it confirms the converse.
You mean that antennas was original, but antennae is growing in
popularity????
Are you trying to usurp Evans as the village idiot?
Hint, there is no mention of 'growing popularity' of either- it is clear
they mean antennas is used for RF antennas.
It is really not my fault if you use the word converse when you don't
know what it means. The dictionary says that antennas is a second
variant 'especially' used for radio aerials, it certainly doesn't say it
is exclusive usage in this context. Growing popularity is from my own
observation of the literature, antennae is widely used in UK 1930s
publications.
And I do resent pompous twats who can barely speak English calling *me*
an idiot.
just use the term "Twig".....most hammy mens do ....
Spike
2017-07-27 08:02:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Reay
Are you trying to usurp Evans as the village idiot?
Hint, there is no mention of 'growing popularity' of either- it is clear
they mean antennas is used for RF antennas.
It is really not my fault if you use the word converse when you don't
know what it means. The dictionary says that antennas is a second
variant 'especially' used for radio aerials, it certainly doesn't say it
is exclusive usage in this context. Growing popularity is from my own
observation of the literature, antennae is widely used in UK 1930s
publications.
In his depiction of the X-Gerate-equipped Heinkel III, R V Jones
labelled them as 'antennae'.
Post by Roger Hayter
And I do resent pompous twats who can barely speak English calling *me*
an idiot.
Nice burn.
--
Spike
Custos Custodum
2017-07-27 10:19:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Reay
Are you trying to usurp Evans as the village idiot?
Hint, there is no mention of 'growing popularity' of either- it is clear
they mean antennas is used for RF antennas.
It is really not my fault if you use the word converse when you don't
know what it means. The dictionary says that antennas is a second
variant 'especially' used for radio aerials, it certainly doesn't say it
is exclusive usage in this context. Growing popularity is from my own
observation of the literature, antennae is widely used in UK 1930s
publications.
In his depiction of the X-Gerate-equipped Heinkel III, R V Jones
labelled them as 'antennae'.
Such a description might well have been apt, given the appearance and
attachment of these structures. But that was ~70 years ago. Language
and spelling change. Not many people write "shewn" for "shown" these
days.
Ian Jackson
2017-07-27 13:12:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Custos Custodum
Not many people write "shewn" for "shown" these
days.
I recall 'shewn' in my primary school arithmetic books, Mind you, it was
some time ago.

As for Latin plurals, I feel that in cases where the Romans would never
have used that word for something (either because the thing did not
exist, or if it did exist, we now use the word for something somewhat
different), the Anglicised ending is usually preferable. I really cringe
when I hear the pretentious 'musea', 'stadia' and (topically)
'referenda'.
--
Ian
Custos Custodum
2017-07-28 14:21:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 14:12:47 +0100, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Custos Custodum
Not many people write "shewn" for "shown" these
days.
I recall 'shewn' in my primary school arithmetic books, Mind you, it was
some time ago.
As for Latin plurals, I feel that in cases where the Romans would never
have used that word for something (either because the thing did not
exist, or if it did exist, we now use the word for something somewhat
different), the Anglicised ending is usually preferable.
Absolutely! All foreign borrowings should be naturalised and given a
regular English plural wherever possible. I haven't had much success
with 'criterions' yet, however. :-)
Post by Ian Jackson
I really cringe
when I hear the pretentious 'musea', 'stadia' and (topically)
'referenda'.
Ian Jackson
2017-07-28 15:31:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Custos Custodum
On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 14:12:47 +0100, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Custos Custodum
Not many people write "shewn" for "shown" these
days.
I recall 'shewn' in my primary school arithmetic books, Mind you, it was
some time ago.
As for Latin plurals, I feel that in cases where the Romans would never
have used that word for something (either because the thing did not
exist, or if it did exist, we now use the word for something somewhat
different), the Anglicised ending is usually preferable.
Absolutely! All foreign borrowings should be naturalised and given a
regular English plural wherever possible. I haven't had much success
with 'criterions' yet, however. :-)
I'm surprised. It's actually 'criterion' which seems to have
disappeared. These days, both plural AND singular seem to be 'criteria'
(even by those-who-should-know-better).

The same goes for 'bacteria'. I was listening on the radio to programme
about language, and when the use of 'a bacteria' was challenged, a
doctor seemed completely nonplussed as to what the problem was. I'm sure
that neither Dr Findlay nor Dr Kildare would make such a mistake.
Post by Custos Custodum
Post by Ian Jackson
I really cringe
when I hear the pretentious 'musea', 'stadia' and (topically)
'referenda'.
--
Ian
Custos Custodum
2017-07-28 16:02:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 28 Jul 2017 16:31:39 +0100, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Custos Custodum
On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 14:12:47 +0100, Ian Jackson
The same goes for 'bacteria'. I was listening on the radio to programme
about language, and when the use of 'a bacteria' was challenged, a
doctor seemed completely nonplussed as to what the problem was. I'm sure
that neither Dr Findlay nor Dr Kildare would make such a mistake.
Speaking of bacteria, one of my pet peeves is when all those
Oxbridge-educated meedja types pronounce Clostridium Difficile as if
it were French. Well, it ain't; it's Latin, where all vowels are
sounded and all C's are (well) hard.
Ian Jackson
2017-07-28 16:20:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Custos Custodum
On Fri, 28 Jul 2017 16:31:39 +0100, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Custos Custodum
On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 14:12:47 +0100, Ian Jackson
The same goes for 'bacteria'. I was listening on the radio to programme
about language, and when the use of 'a bacteria' was challenged, a
doctor seemed completely nonplussed as to what the problem was. I'm sure
that neither Dr Findlay nor Dr Kildare would make such a mistake.
Speaking of bacteria, one of my pet peeves is when all those
Oxbridge-educated meedja types pronounce Clostridium Difficile as if
it were French. Well, it ain't; it's Latin, where all vowels are
sounded and all C's are (well) hard.
Even though the soft C before I and E was adopted in the middle ages,
does anyone really know for certain that all Ancient Roman C's were
hard? It's just as probable that they were, as in modern Latin-based
words, soft before I's and E's. They might also have been a bit like the
Italian ch or the Spanish th. On the other hand, if the C's were like
Esses, why didn't they simply use a Esses?
--
Ian
Roger Hayter
2017-07-27 18:15:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Custos Custodum
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Reay
Are you trying to usurp Evans as the village idiot?
Hint, there is no mention of 'growing popularity' of either- it is clear
they mean antennas is used for RF antennas.
It is really not my fault if you use the word converse when you don't
know what it means. The dictionary says that antennas is a second
variant 'especially' used for radio aerials, it certainly doesn't say it
is exclusive usage in this context. Growing popularity is from my own
observation of the literature, antennae is widely used in UK 1930s
publications.
In his depiction of the X-Gerate-equipped Heinkel III, R V Jones
labelled them as 'antennae'.
Such a description might well have been apt, given the appearance and
attachment of these structures. But that was ~70 years ago. Language
and spelling change. Not many people write "shewn" for "shown" these
days.
I think that, with the exception of Gareth, we all agree to a greater or
lesser extent with that. The disagreement is over the idea that
antennas has always and universally been used in the radio world.
Clearly in the UK it hasn't. Whether antennae was ever used in the USA
I don't know, and would be interested in comments.
--
Roger Hayter
Brian Morrison
2017-07-28 10:28:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:15:37 +0100
Post by Roger Hayter
Whether antennae was ever used in the USA
I don't know, and would be interested in comments.
With a few exceptions (summa cum laude etc.) the US is not keen on
Latin spellings so I suspect not.

In the UK, since the end of WWII, the use of antennae for radio related
radiating objects is negligible, I have been reading the professional
literature for nearly 40 years and antennas is the word used without
exception both UK and US plus the rest of the world.
--
Brian Morrison
Gareth's Downstairs Computer
2017-07-28 11:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:15:37 +0100
Post by Roger Hayter
Whether antennae was ever used in the USA
I don't know, and would be interested in comments.
With a few exceptions (summa cum laude etc.) the US is not keen on
Latin spellings so I suspect not.
In the UK, since the end of WWII, the use of antennae for radio related
radiating objects is negligible, I have been reading the professional
literature for nearly 40 years and antennas is the word used without
exception both UK and US plus the rest of the world.
I refer you to the professional tome, "Antennae" by Aharoni
of Imperial College, published by Oxford.

One presumes that each of the lesser souls is an ignoramus.
Roger Hayter
2017-07-28 11:34:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:15:37 +0100
Post by Roger Hayter
Whether antennae was ever used in the USA
I don't know, and would be interested in comments.
With a few exceptions (summa cum laude etc.) the US is not keen on
Latin spellings so I suspect not.
In the UK, since the end of WWII, the use of antennae for radio related
radiating objects is negligible, I have been reading the professional
literature for nearly 40 years and antennas is the word used without
exception both UK and US plus the rest of the world.
I refer you to the professional tome, "Antennae" by Aharoni
of Imperial College, published by Oxford.
One presumes that each of the lesser souls is an ignoramus.
Quite so. 1946. Whether we like it or not, a combination of Americans
and democratisation of our War Office (which got renamed as a 'defence
department' at about the same time[1]) has led to the disappearance of
'antennae' from the radio literature. I agree with you that
historically it *was* correct, but it is exceptional to the point of
being confusing now. Languages change.

[1] See Orwell, 1984. War is peace.
--
Roger Hayter
j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
2017-07-28 18:22:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:15:37 +0100
Post by Roger Hayter
Whether antennae was ever used in the USA
I don't know, and would be interested in comments.
With a few exceptions (summa cum laude etc.) the US is not keen on
Latin spellings so I suspect not.
In the UK, since the end of WWII, the use of antennae for radio related
radiating objects is negligible, I have been reading the professional
literature for nearly 40 years and antennas is the word used without
exception both UK and US plus the rest of the world.
I refer you to the professional tome, "Antennae" by Aharoni
of Imperial College, published by Oxford.
One presumes that each of the lesser souls is an ignoramus.
I refer you to William Shakespeare for correct English usage.

Those using computers may be in a bit of a bind as not only has the spelling
changed drastically since Shakespease's time, but so has the alphabet.

One presumes that if you can't spell like Shakespeare you are uneducated.
--
Jim Pennino
Gareth's Downstairs Computer
2017-07-28 20:29:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:15:37 +0100
Post by Roger Hayter
Whether antennae was ever used in the USA
I don't know, and would be interested in comments.
With a few exceptions (summa cum laude etc.) the US is not keen on
Latin spellings so I suspect not.
In the UK, since the end of WWII, the use of antennae for radio related
radiating objects is negligible, I have been reading the professional
literature for nearly 40 years and antennas is the word used without
exception both UK and US plus the rest of the world.
I refer you to the professional tome, "Antennae" by Aharoni
of Imperial College, published by Oxford.
One presumes that each of the lesser souls is an ignoramus.
I refer you to William Shakespeare for correct English usage.
Those using computers may be in a bit of a bind as not only has the spelling
changed drastically since Shakespease's time, but so has the alphabet.
One presumes that if you can't spell like Shakespeare you are uneducated.
It is unclear from your blurting out as to whether you are speaking for,
or against, the motion that you are a rebel without a cause, making an
argument for the sake of the argument alone.

Chill out. Sonny.
j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
2017-07-28 20:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:15:37 +0100
Post by Roger Hayter
Whether antennae was ever used in the USA
I don't know, and would be interested in comments.
With a few exceptions (summa cum laude etc.) the US is not keen on
Latin spellings so I suspect not.
In the UK, since the end of WWII, the use of antennae for radio related
radiating objects is negligible, I have been reading the professional
literature for nearly 40 years and antennas is the word used without
exception both UK and US plus the rest of the world.
I refer you to the professional tome, "Antennae" by Aharoni
of Imperial College, published by Oxford.
One presumes that each of the lesser souls is an ignoramus.
I refer you to William Shakespeare for correct English usage.
Those using computers may be in a bit of a bind as not only has the spelling
changed drastically since Shakespease's time, but so has the alphabet.
One presumes that if you can't spell like Shakespeare you are uneducated.
It is unclear from your blurting out as to whether you are speaking for,
or against, the motion that you are a rebel without a cause, making an
argument for the sake of the argument alone.
Chill out. Sonny.
Just pointing out how ridiculous it is to insist that the spelling of
some word must be the same as in some old book.

Grow up, goof ball.
--
Jim Pennino
Paul Cummins
2017-07-29 18:59:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Those using computers may be in a bit of a bind as not only has the
spelling changed drastically since Shakespease's time, but so has the
alphabet.
Really? What letters have we gained or lost since 1550?
--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
Free 40 satoshi/min bitcoin mining
https://btcprominer.life/260604
Brian Reay
2017-07-29 19:14:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul Cummins
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Those using computers may be in a bit of a bind as not only has the
spelling changed drastically since Shakespease's time, but so has the
alphabet.
Really? What letters have we gained or lost since 1550?
Several letters changed usage / were introduced around Shakespeare's
time- spelling and usage was far from stable. Shakespeare didn't even
always spell his name the same way and was responsible for a raft of new
words being added to our language. There is a very good book by Bill
Bryson on the topic.
Paul Cummins
2017-07-31 01:52:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Reay
Several letters changed usage / were introduced around
Shakespeare's time
Exemplify please, don't merely huff and puff and make unvarnished
assertions.
--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
Free 40 satoshi/min bitcoin mining
https://btcprominer.life/260604
Brian Reay
2017-07-31 08:03:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul Cummins
Post by Brian Reay
Several letters changed usage / were introduced around
Shakespeare's time
Exemplify please, don't merely huff and puff and make unvarnished
assertions.
An odd comment, as you made similar statements in a post of your own.

One could almost think you were simply being an objectionable, stirring,
bit of scum.
--
Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud
mm0fmf
2017-07-29 21:27:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul Cummins
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Those using computers may be in a bit of a bind as not only has the
spelling changed drastically since Shakespease's time, but so has the
alphabet.
Really? What letters have we gained or lost since 1550?
J & U. J first started appearing in English words from 1630s onwards. U
as distinct from V was later still. My 1830 English dictionary only has
24 letters in it with J & U still intermixed with I & V.
Jeff
2017-07-30 08:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mm0fmf
Post by Paul Cummins
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Those using computers may be in a bit of a bind as not only has the
spelling changed drastically since Shakespease's time, but so has the
alphabet.
Really? What letters have we gained or lost since 1550?
J & U. J first started appearing in English words from 1630s onwards. U
as distinct from V was later still. My 1830 English dictionary only has
24 letters in it with J & U still intermixed with I & V.
Perhaps we can also consider the Ash.

In particular Gareth's use of 'ether' rather than æther to keep this
radio related.

Jeff
mm0fmf
2017-07-30 09:05:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeff
Post by mm0fmf
Post by Paul Cummins
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Those using computers may be in a bit of a bind as not only has the
spelling changed drastically since Shakespease's time, but so has the
alphabet.
Really? What letters have we gained or lost since 1550?
J & U. J first started appearing in English words from 1630s onwards.
U as distinct from V was later still. My 1830 English dictionary only
has 24 letters in it with J & U still intermixed with I & V.
Perhaps we can also consider the Ash.
In particular Gareth's use of 'ether' rather than æther to keep this
radio related.
Jeff
I know there are a number of Old English letters that have dropped out
of use. Was that post Shakespeare though?
Brian Reay
2017-07-30 12:33:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mm0fmf
Post by Jeff
Post by mm0fmf
Post by Paul Cummins
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Those using computers may be in a bit of a bind as not only has the
spelling changed drastically since Shakespease's time, but so has the
alphabet.
Really? What letters have we gained or lost since 1550?
J & U. J first started appearing in English words from 1630s onwards.
U as distinct from V was later still. My 1830 English dictionary only
has 24 letters in it with J & U still intermixed with I & V.
Perhaps we can also consider the Ash.
In particular Gareth's use of 'ether' rather than æther to keep this
radio related.
Jeff
I know there are a number of Old English letters that have dropped out
of use. Was that post Shakespeare though?
w only became established in its own right as a distinct letter around
or post Shakespeare I believe. It is hard to be sure when, things were
far from consistent.

It is a fascinating topic, Shakespeare is credited with expanding the
English language more than any other person by inventing new words.
Brian Howie
2017-07-30 10:33:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeff
Post by mm0fmf
Post by Paul Cummins
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Those using computers may be in a bit of a bind as not only has the
spelling changed drastically since Shakespease's time, but so has the
alphabet.
Really? What letters have we gained or lost since 1550?
J & U. J first started appearing in English words from 1630s
onwards. U as distinct from V was later still. My 1830 English
dictionary only has 24 letters in it with J & U still intermixed with
I & V.
Perhaps we can also consider the Ash.
In particular Gareth's use of 'ether' rather than æther to keep this
radio related.
Jeff
The yogh is still alive and well to some extent in Scottish surnames and
place names. .

There wis a young lassie named Menzies,
That askit her aunt whit this thenzies.
Said her aunt wi a gasp,
"Ma dear, it's a wasp,
An you're haudin the end whaur the stenzies!"


Brian
--
Brian Howie
mm0fmf
2017-07-30 12:59:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Howie
Post by Jeff
Post by mm0fmf
Post by Paul Cummins
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Those using computers may be in a bit of a bind as not only has the
spelling changed drastically since Shakespease's time, but so has the
alphabet.
Really? What letters have we gained or lost since 1550?
J & U. J first started appearing in English words from 1630s
onwards. U as distinct from V was later still. My 1830 English
dictionary only has 24 letters in it with J & U still intermixed
with I & V.
Perhaps we can also consider the Ash.
In particular Gareth's use of 'ether' rather than æther to keep this
radio related.
Jeff
The yogh is still alive and well to some extent in Scottish surnames and
place names. .
There wis a young lassie named Menzies,
That askit her aunt whit this thenzies.
Said her aunt wi a gasp,
"Ma dear, it's a wasp,
An you're haudin the end whaur the stenzies!"
Brian
Sublime stuff Brian.
Stephen Thomas Troll
2017-07-30 13:42:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mm0fmf
Post by Brian Howie
Post by Jeff
Post by mm0fmf
Post by Paul Cummins
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Those using computers may be in a bit of a bind as not only has the
spelling changed drastically since Shakespease's time, but so has
the alphabet.
Really? What letters have we gained or lost since 1550?
J & U. J first started appearing in English words from 1630s
onwards. U as distinct from V was later still. My 1830 English
dictionary only has 24 letters in it with J & U still intermixed
with I & V.
Perhaps we can also consider the Ash.
In particular Gareth's use of 'ether' rather than æther to keep this
radio related.
Jeff
The yogh is still alive and well to some extent in Scottish surnames
and place names. .
There wis a young lassie named Menzies,
That askit her aunt whit this thenzies.
Said her aunt wi a gasp,
"Ma dear, it's a wasp,
An you're haudin the end whaur the stenzies!"
Brian
Sublime stuff Brian.
Eats shoots and leaves.
Jimbo
2017-07-30 12:59:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Howie
Post by Jeff
Post by mm0fmf
Post by Paul Cummins
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Those using computers may be in a bit of a bind as not only has the
spelling changed drastically since Shakespease's time, but so has the
alphabet.
Really? What letters have we gained or lost since 1550?
J & U. J first started appearing in English words from 1630s onwards. U
as distinct from V was later still. My 1830 English dictionary only has
24 letters in it with J & U still intermixed with I & V.
Perhaps we can also consider the Ash.
In particular Gareth's use of 'ether' rather than æther to keep this radio
related.
Jeff
The yogh is still alive and well to some extent in Scottish surnames and
place names. .
There wis a young lassie named Menzies,
That askit her aunt whit this thenzies.
Said her aunt wi a gasp,
"Ma dear, it's a wasp,
An you're haudin the end whaur the stenzies!"
Brian
Mingis NOT Menzies ....
Jimbo
2017-07-30 13:02:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jimbo
Post by Brian Howie
Post by Jeff
Post by mm0fmf
Post by Paul Cummins
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Those using computers may be in a bit of a bind as not only has the
spelling changed drastically since Shakespease's time, but so has the
alphabet.
Really? What letters have we gained or lost since 1550?
J & U. J first started appearing in English words from 1630s onwards.
U as distinct from V was later still. My 1830 English dictionary only
has 24 letters in it with J & U still intermixed with I & V.
Perhaps we can also consider the Ash.
In particular Gareth's use of 'ether' rather than æther to keep this
radio related.
Jeff
The yogh is still alive and well to some extent in Scottish surnames and
place names. .
There wis a young lassie named Menzies,
That askit her aunt whit this thenzies.
Said her aunt wi a gasp,
"Ma dear, it's a wasp,
An you're haudin the end whaur the stenzies!"
Brian
Mingis NOT Menzies ....
Dael NOT Dalzeil ......

Scottish is weird ...
Ian Jackson
2017-07-30 13:33:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jimbo
Dael NOT Dalzeil ......
Scottish is weird ...
As are Scots.
--
Ian
Ian Jackson
2017-07-30 13:32:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jimbo
Mingis NOT Menzies ....
You don't say!
--
Ian
Roger Hayter
2017-07-30 14:36:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Howie
Post by Jeff
Post by mm0fmf
Post by Paul Cummins
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Those using computers may be in a bit of a bind as not only has the
spelling changed drastically since Shakespease's time, but so has the
alphabet.
Really? What letters have we gained or lost since 1550?
J & U. J first started appearing in English words from 1630s
onwards. U as distinct from V was later still. My 1830 English
dictionary only has 24 letters in it with J & U still intermixed with
I & V.
Perhaps we can also consider the Ash.
In particular Gareth's use of 'ether' rather than æther to keep this
radio related.
Jeff
The yogh is still alive and well to some extent in Scottish surnames and
place names. .
There wis a young lassie named Menzies,
That askit her aunt whit this thenzies.
Said her aunt wi a gasp,
"Ma dear, it's a wasp,
An you're haudin the end whaur the stenzies!"
Brian
It is perhaps fortunate, from the Limerick POV, that it doesn't sound
like a soft g.
--
Roger Hayter
Paul Cummins
2017-07-31 01:52:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mm0fmf
J & U.
I disagree
Post by mm0fmf
J first started appearing in English words from 1630s
onwards.
Gian Giorgio Trissino (1478–1550) was the first to explicitly distinguish
I and J as representing separate sounds, in his epistle about the
letters recently added in the Italian language of 1524. While the first
English language book to make a clear distinction between I and J was
published in 1633, the letter must have eben in common use in writing
long before then.
Post by mm0fmf
U as distinct from V was later still.
The first recorded use of U and V as distinct letters is in a Gothic
alphabet from 1386, where V preceded U although Printers eschewed capital
U into the 17th century.

As to suggestions that W was not in use in Shakespeare's time, it was
considered a separate letter by the 14th century in both Middle English
and Middle German orthography.

So again, my question remains - what letters have we (provably) lost or
gained (in Modern English) only since 1550.
--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
Free 40 satoshi/min bitcoin mining
https://btcprominer.life/260604
Brian Reay
2017-07-31 07:27:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul Cummins
Post by mm0fmf
J & U.
I disagree
Post by mm0fmf
J first started appearing in English words from 1630s
onwards.
Gian Giorgio Trissino (1478–1550) was the first to explicitly distinguish
I and J as representing separate sounds, in his epistle about the
letters recently added in the Italian language of 1524.
Italian isn't English.

While the first
Post by Paul Cummins
English language book to make a clear distinction between I and J was
published in 1633, the letter must have eben in common use in writing
long before then.
So they were probably added after 1550, which is what you asked.

Yet again you are arguing against someone yet present evidence they are
correct.



<little point in considering your remaining drivel>

Should you even take up law, you would be a most unsuccessful advocate-
you would always be arguing the case of your clients opponent.
--
Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud
Paul Cummins
2017-07-31 09:31:00 UTC
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Post by Brian Reay
So they were probably added after 1550, which is what you asked.
Oh Dear, Reay getting it wrong as ever...

http://fluentfocus.com/the-history-of-the-english-alphabet/

In the Middle Ages, the letters ‘u’ and ‘j’ were added to the English
alphabet. This brought the alphabet up to its modern total of twenty-six
letters

the Middle Ages or Medieval Period lasted from the 5th to the 15th
century. So, by the end of 1499, U and J were already being used in
English.

What letters have been addred or removed since 1550?

Clue: there aren't any - other than spelling certainty brought in by
dictionaries, the English Language as a written form has not changed
significantly since Shakespeare's time.
--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
Free 40 satoshi/min bitcoin mining
https://btcprominer.life/260604
FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
2017-07-31 10:15:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul Cummins
Post by mm0fmf
J & U.
I disagree
Post by mm0fmf
J first started appearing in English words from 1630s
onwards.
Gian Giorgio Trissino (1478-1550) was the first to explicitly distinguish
I and J as representing separate sounds, in his epistle about the
letters recently added in the Italian language of 1524. While the first
English language book to make a clear distinction between I and J was
published in 1633, the letter must have eben in common use in writing
long before then.
Post by mm0fmf
U as distinct from V was later still.
The first recorded use of U and V as distinct letters is in a Gothic
alphabet from 1386, where V preceded U although Printers eschewed capital
U into the 17th century.
As to suggestions that W was not in use in Shakespeare's time, it was
considered a separate letter by the 14th century in both Middle English
and Middle German orthography.
So again, my question remains - what letters have we (provably) lost or
gained (in Modern English) only since 1550.
Why is W pronounced "double U" and not "double V"?
--
;-)
.
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
.
http://turner-smith.uk
Jeff
2017-07-31 11:09:24 UTC
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Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Why is W pronounced "double U" and not "double V"?
Because that is what the French do??

Jeff
Ian Jackson
2017-07-31 11:21:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeff
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Why is W pronounced "double U" and not "double V"?
Because that is what the French do??
Jeff
Presumably you mean "Because we don't want to be like the French, who
pronounce it like incorrectly"? Anyway, what do they know? Apart from
some words they've stolen from other languages, they don't use it.

A W is, of course, literally, a 'double U'. In most words, it's a long U
vowel, and the cunning Welsh use as such. An alternative name could be a
'double O' - but that might get confused with a gauge of model railway.
--
Ian
Brian Reay
2017-07-31 11:22:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeff
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Why is W pronounced "double U" and not "double V"?
Because that is what the French do??
Jeff
A lot of our language was influenced by French post 1066.
Paul Cummins
2017-07-31 12:54:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Why is W pronounced "double U" and not "double V"?
Exactly - since W has been present since the 1400's, it follows that U
was already known, otherwise it wouldn be caller Double-U.

If course, you'd epxect someone involved in education to already know
this - that is if his first language wasn't bullshit.
--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
Free 40 satoshi/min bitcoin mining
https://btcprominer.life/260604
mm0fmf
2017-07-31 18:38:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul Cummins
Post by mm0fmf
J & U.
I disagree
Post by mm0fmf
J first started appearing in English words from 1630s
onwards.
Gian Giorgio Trissino (1478–1550) was the first to explicitly distinguish
I and J as representing separate sounds, in his epistle about the
letters recently added in the Italian language of 1524. While the first
English language book to make a clear distinction between I and J was
published in 1633, the letter must have eben in common use in writing
long before then.
Post by mm0fmf
U as distinct from V was later still.
The first recorded use of U and V as distinct letters is in a Gothic
alphabet from 1386, where V preceded U although Printers eschewed capital
U into the 17th century.
As to suggestions that W was not in use in Shakespeare's time, it was
considered a separate letter by the 14th century in both Middle English
and Middle German orthography.
So again, my question remains - what letters have we (provably) lost or
gained (in Modern English) only since 1550.
Let's look at something verifiable, the 1611 James 1st Bible on the
British Library website.

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/kingjames_lg.html

Hmm... that looks interesting, the section is titled (sorry I don't know
the magic keystrokes to get the old English long "s" char that looks
like an "f" so I'll use an "f" instead.

"The Gofpel according to S.Iohn"

So no change to English as it's written now compared to 1611, a time
when Shakespeare was still writing works like The Tempest (or The
Tempeft" in Shakespeare's day.)


YFI.
Brian Reay
2017-07-31 19:39:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mm0fmf
Post by Paul Cummins
Post by mm0fmf
J & U.
I disagree
Post by mm0fmf
J first started appearing in English words from 1630s
onwards.
Gian Giorgio Trissino (1478–1550) was the first to explicitly distinguish
I and J as representing separate sounds, in his epistle about the
letters recently added in the Italian language of 1524. While the first
English language book to make a clear distinction between I and J was
published in 1633, the letter must have eben in common use in writing
long before then.
Post by mm0fmf
U as distinct from V was later still.
The first recorded use of U and V as distinct letters is in a Gothic
alphabet from 1386, where V preceded U although Printers eschewed capital
U into the 17th century.
As to suggestions that W was not in use in Shakespeare's time, it was
considered a separate letter by the 14th century in both Middle English
and Middle German orthography.
So again, my question remains - what letters have we (provably) lost or
gained (in Modern English) only since 1550.
Let's look at something verifiable, the 1611 James 1st Bible on the
British Library website.
http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/kingjames_lg.html
Hmm... that looks interesting, the section is titled (sorry I don't know
the magic keystrokes to get the old English long "s" char that looks
like an "f" so I'll use an "f" instead.
"The Gofpel according to S.Iohn"
So no change to English as it's written now compared to 1611, a time
when Shakespeare was still writing works like The Tempest (or The
Tempeft" in Shakespeare's day.)
YFI.
It is just that he is an idiot, that simply explains why he persists in
his silly vendetta, the real problem is that he is an obnoxious bit of
scum.
Paul Cummins
2017-07-31 20:32:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mm0fmf
So no change to English as it's written now compared to 1611, a
time when Shakespeare was still writing works like The Tempest (or
The Tempeft" in Shakespeare's day.)
That wasn't the question.

Perhaps you and your obnoxious bumchum from Kent sould actually answer
the question that was asked?
--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
Free 40 satoshi/min bitcoin mining
https://btcprominer.life/260604
Brian Reay
2017-07-31 22:12:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul Cummins
Post by mm0fmf
So no change to English as it's written now compared to 1611, a
time when Shakespeare was still writing works like The Tempest (or
The Tempeft" in Shakespeare's day.)
That wasn't the question.
Perhaps you and your obnoxious bumchum from Kent sould actually answer
the question that was asked?
Oh dear, you really don't like it when you are proven wrong. You would
think you would be used to it.
--
Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud
Ian Jackson
2017-07-31 22:36:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Paul Cummins
Post by mm0fmf
So no change to English as it's written now compared to 1611, a
time when Shakespeare was still writing works like The Tempest (or
The Tempeft" in Shakespeare's day.)
That wasn't the question.
Perhaps you and your obnoxious bumchum from Kent sould actually answer
the question that was asked?
Oh dear, you really don't like it when you are proven wrong.
The participle is usually 'proved'. The sentence might better be "when
you are (have been) proved wrong".

'Proven' is essentially an adjective, as in "You made a proven error".
Its use as a participle is rather archaic, and applies mainly to
specific expressions.

Unfortunately, it's often difficult to distinguish between the two.
Post by Brian Reay
You would think you would be used to it.
--
Ian
Jeefaw K. Effkay
2017-07-30 12:44:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul Cummins
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Those using computers may be in a bit of a bind as not only has the
spelling changed drastically since Shakespease's time, but so has the
alphabet.
Really? What letters have we gained or lost since 1550?
The following letters from Olde English no longer exist in ASCII: , , , and of course .
Jeff
2017-07-28 11:35:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:15:37 +0100
Post by Roger Hayter
Whether antennae was ever used in the USA
I don't know, and would be interested in comments.
With a few exceptions (summa cum laude etc.) the US is not keen on
Latin spellings so I suspect not.
In the UK, since the end of WWII, the use of antennae for radio related
radiating objects is negligible, I have been reading the professional
literature for nearly 40 years and antennas is the word used without
exception both UK and US plus the rest of the world.
Indeed, and pre-war the UK usage was 'aerial' not antenna.

It seems that antenna was an import from across the pond, with its
plural as 'antennas'. I suspect that the use of antennae was the normal
reaction to a 'crass Americanism' by people who though that they knew
better.

Jeff
Roger Hayter
2017-07-28 11:46:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeff
Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:15:37 +0100
Post by Roger Hayter
Whether antennae was ever used in the USA
I don't know, and would be interested in comments.
With a few exceptions (summa cum laude etc.) the US is not keen on
Latin spellings so I suspect not.
In the UK, since the end of WWII, the use of antennae for radio related
radiating objects is negligible, I have been reading the professional
literature for nearly 40 years and antennas is the word used without
exception both UK and US plus the rest of the world.
Indeed, and pre-war the UK usage was 'aerial' not antenna.
It seems that antenna was an import from across the pond, with its
plural as 'antennas'. I suspect that the use of antennae was the normal
reaction to a 'crass Americanism' by people who though that they knew
better.
Jeff
I suspect you're guessing. From a completely unsystematic vague
recollection of literature I would say that 'Antenna, pl. antennae' was
the scientific term in the UK in the 1920s and 1930s and 'aerial'
remained the popular (?Marconi influenced) version. Aerial remains
common usage among people not much interested in radio. Though I
suppose antenna may replace aerial in popular culture before long.
'Antennae' was therefore not a back formation, but the natural choice of
UK engineers with a classical education. I think the American influence
came later.
--
Roger Hayter
Jeefaw K. Effkay
2017-07-28 12:07:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Jeff
Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:15:37 +0100
Post by Roger Hayter
Whether antennae was ever used in the USA
I don't know, and would be interested in comments.
With a few exceptions (summa cum laude etc.) the US is not keen on
Latin spellings so I suspect not.
In the UK, since the end of WWII, the use of antennae for radio related
radiating objects is negligible, I have been reading the professional
literature for nearly 40 years and antennas is the word used without
exception both UK and US plus the rest of the world.
Indeed, and pre-war the UK usage was 'aerial' not antenna.
It seems that antenna was an import from across the pond, with its
plural as 'antennas'. I suspect that the use of antennae was the normal
reaction to a 'crass Americanism' by people who though that they knew
better.
Jeff
I suspect you're guessing. From a completely unsystematic vague
recollection of literature I would say that 'Antenna, pl. antennae' was
the scientific term in the UK in the 1920s and 1930s and 'aerial'
remained the popular (?Marconi influenced) version. Aerial remains
common usage among people not much interested in radio. Though I
suppose antenna may replace aerial in popular culture before long.
'Antennae' was therefore not a back formation, but the natural choice of
UK engineers with a classical education. I think the American influence
came later.
Just scanned through some old Wireless World magazines. This was a British publication. The term "aerials" cropped up at least once in every issue, but I did find the following:

March 20th 1929, page 313 "... using separate antennas."
February 25th 1931, page 201 "The vast network of antennas, covering..."

The only references I can find to this pompous and pretentious term "antennae" are on page 37 of WW July 10th 1929, in a description of the South Schenectady transmitting laboratory of the American General Electric Company, and on page 44 of WW July 11th 1928, in a description of "trailing antennae developed by the US Bureau of Standards".

And, as previously noted, J Aharoni was not British. He was German.

So it is "antennae" that is the "crass Americanism" (or crass Beanism?), and "antennas" that is the correct British English version.
Roger Hayter
2017-07-28 17:28:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeefaw K. Effkay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Jeff
Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:15:37 +0100
Post by Roger Hayter
Whether antennae was ever used in the USA
I don't know, and would be interested in comments.
With a few exceptions (summa cum laude etc.) the US is not keen on
Latin spellings so I suspect not.
In the UK, since the end of WWII, the use of antennae for radio related
radiating objects is negligible, I have been reading the professional
literature for nearly 40 years and antennas is the word used without
exception both UK and US plus the rest of the world.
Indeed, and pre-war the UK usage was 'aerial' not antenna.
It seems that antenna was an import from across the pond, with its
plural as 'antennas'. I suspect that the use of antennae was the normal
reaction to a 'crass Americanism' by people who though that they knew
better.
Jeff
I suspect you're guessing. From a completely unsystematic vague
recollection of literature I would say that 'Antenna, pl. antennae' was
the scientific term in the UK in the 1920s and 1930s and 'aerial'
remained the popular (?Marconi influenced) version. Aerial remains
common usage among people not much interested in radio. Though I
suppose antenna may replace aerial in popular culture before long.
'Antennae' was therefore not a back formation, but the natural choice of
UK engineers with a classical education. I think the American influence
came later.
Just scanned through some old Wireless World magazines. This was a British
publication. The term "aerials" cropped up at least once in every issue,
March 20th 1929, page 313 "... using separate antennas." February 25th
1931, page 201 "The vast network of antennas, covering..."
The only references I can find to this pompous and pretentious term
"antennae" are on page 37 of WW July 10th 1929, in a description of the
South Schenectady transmitting laboratory of the American General Electric
Company, and on page 44 of WW July 11th 1928, in a description of
"trailing antennae developed by the US Bureau of Standards".
And, as previously noted, J Aharoni was not British. He was German.
So it is "antennae" that is the "crass Americanism" (or crass Beanism?),
and "antennas" that is the correct British English version.
You are reading evidence in an artificial way to suit your
preconception. What you found was a 50/50 use of both in 1930s WW, the
fact that they were talking about American installations being most
likely irrelevant. They wouldn't have used 'color' when talking about
an American printer, would they? So that your findings tend to
support my view, not yours.
--
Roger Hayter
Jeff
2017-07-29 08:53:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Jeefaw K. Effkay
Post by Roger Hayter
I suspect you're guessing. From a completely unsystematic vague
recollection of literature I would say that 'Antenna, pl. antennae' was
the scientific term in the UK in the 1920s and 1930s and 'aerial'
remained the popular (?Marconi influenced) version. Aerial remains
common usage among people not much interested in radio. Though I
suppose antenna may replace aerial in popular culture before long.
'Antennae' was therefore not a back formation, but the natural choice of
UK engineers with a classical education. I think the American influence
came later.
Just scanned through some old Wireless World magazines. This was a British
publication. The term "aerials" cropped up at least once in every issue,
March 20th 1929, page 313 "... using separate antennas." February 25th
1931, page 201 "The vast network of antennas, covering..."
The only references I can find to this pompous and pretentious term
"antennae" are on page 37 of WW July 10th 1929, in a description of the
South Schenectady transmitting laboratory of the American General Electric
Company, and on page 44 of WW July 11th 1928, in a description of
"trailing antennae developed by the US Bureau of Standards".
And, as previously noted, J Aharoni was not British. He was German.
So it is "antennae" that is the "crass Americanism" (or crass Beanism?),
and "antennas" that is the correct British English version.
You are reading evidence in an artificial way to suit your
preconception. What you found was a 50/50 use of both in 1930s WW, the
fact that they were talking about American installations being most
likely irrelevant. They wouldn't have used 'color' when talking about
an American printer, would they? So that your findings tend to
support my view, not yours.
Now who's reading evidence in an artificial way!!

Aerial(s) in every copy of WW vs 1 antennas (presumably a UK author),
and 1 antennae from a US author.

Jeff
Jeff
2017-07-28 15:24:27 UTC
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Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Jeff
It seems that antenna was an import from across the pond, with its
plural as 'antennas'. I suspect that the use of antennae was the normal
reaction to a 'crass Americanism' by people who though that they knew
better.
Jeff
I suspect you're guessing. From a completely unsystematic vague
recollection of literature I would say that 'Antenna, pl. antennae' was
the scientific term in the UK in the 1920s and 1930s and 'aerial'
remained the popular (?Marconi influenced) version. Aerial remains
common usage among people not much interested in radio. Though I
suppose antenna may replace aerial in popular culture before long.
'Antennae' was therefore not a back formation, but the natural choice of
UK engineers with a classical education. I think the American influence
came later.
No, look at the pre-war literature, as someone else has done in the Re:
Antennae NOT antennas thread.

As another example, my copy of the Admiralty Handbook of Wireless
Telegraphy 1929 does not use the term Antenna, or its plurals, anywhere
in its 547 pages.

Jeff
mm0fmf
2017-07-28 18:02:35 UTC
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Post by Jeff
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Jeff
It seems that antenna was an import from across the pond, with its
plural as 'antennas'. I suspect that the use of antennae was the normal
reaction to a 'crass Americanism' by people who though that they knew
better.
Jeff
I suspect you're guessing. From a completely unsystematic vague
recollection of literature I would say that 'Antenna, pl. antennae' was
the scientific term in the UK in the 1920s and 1930s and 'aerial'
remained the popular (?Marconi influenced) version. Aerial remains
common usage among people not much interested in radio. Though I
suppose antenna may replace aerial in popular culture before long.
'Antennae' was therefore not a back formation, but the natural choice of
UK engineers with a classical education. I think the American influence
came later.
Antennae NOT antennas thread.
As another example, my copy of the Admiralty Handbook of Wireless
Telegraphy 1929 does not use the term Antenna, or its plurals, anywhere
in its 547 pages.
Jeff
My copy of The Services' Textbook of Radio Volume 5 Transmission and
Propagation (1958) doesn't mention antenna, antennas or antennae
anywhere in its 500 pages. Only aerial and aerials.

p.s. Suggest Spuke invest in a copy and read it so he knows what waves
he is launching.
Ian Jackson
2017-07-28 12:02:11 UTC
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Post by Jeff
Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:15:37 +0100
Post by Roger Hayter
Whether antennae was ever used in the USA
I don't know, and would be interested in comments.
With a few exceptions (summa cum laude etc.) the US is not keen on
Latin spellings so I suspect not.
In the UK, since the end of WWII, the use of antennae for radio related
radiating objects is negligible, I have been reading the professional
literature for nearly 40 years and antennas is the word used without
exception both UK and US plus the rest of the world.
Indeed, and pre-war the UK usage was 'aerial' not antenna.
It seems that antenna was an import from across the pond, with its
plural as 'antennas'. I suspect that the use of antennae was the normal
reaction to a 'crass Americanism' by people who though that they knew
better.
Jeff
When I were a lad, in the UK the only people who would really refer to
'antenna' would be radio amateurs - usually among themselves and
particularly when talking to someone abroad. Otherwise, it was 'aerial'
- even in the commercial, professional and broadcasting world. However,
these days its use is not uncommon.

Even in the USA, the word 'aerial' was not unknown, and there are some
old radio adverts from the 20s and early 30s where if is used. Somewhere
on Youtube, there's a Laurel and Hardy film where, with little success,
they attempt to erect 'an aerial' - and I doubt if this is a special UK
version
--
Ian
Brian Reay
2017-07-27 08:26:57 UTC
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Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Custos Custodum
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 21:16:02 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
It is "antennas" for the things connected to radios and "antennae"
for things connected to insects and arthopods even in the UK, not
just in the US, according to Collins English Dictionary.
Try a dictionary for grownups such as the OED and not one
targetted at disuptive children.
antenna, n.
View as: Outline |Full entryKeywords: On |Off
Quotations: Show all |Hide all
Pronunciation: Brit. /an't?n?/, U.S. /æn't?n?/
Inflections: Pl. antennae, (esp. in sense 4) antennas.
Origin: A borrowing from Latin. Etymons: Latin antenna, antemna,
Italian antenna.
Etymology: < classical Latin antenna, earlier antemna... (Show More)
4. A wire, rod, or other structure by which airborne radio waves are
transmitted or received, usually as part of a radio or television
transmission or receiving system; = aerial n. 3.
1902˜2013(Show quotations)
Interpreting that, it does bear out Gareth's theory that antennae is the
original plural but says that antennas is also used "especially" with
radio aerials. So the conclusion I draw is that both are correct but
that antennas is growing in popularity.
No, it confirms the converse.
You mean that antennas was original, but antennae is growing in
popularity????
Are you trying to usurp Evans as the village idiot?
Hint, there is no mention of 'growing popularity' of either- it is clear
they mean antennas is used for RF antennas.
It is really not my fault if you use the word converse when you don't
know what it means. The dictionary says that antennas is a second
variant 'especially' used for radio aerials, it certainly doesn't say it
is exclusive usage in this context. Growing popularity is from my own
observation of the literature, antennae is widely used in UK 1930s
publications.
And I do resent pompous twats who can barely speak English calling *me*
an idiot.
Oh dear, turning to fowl language hardly shows your command of English,
nor that you can conduct yourself in a civil manner.

Don't take your frustration out on others when you've been proved wrong,
that is exactly what your chum did and look where that ended up- him in
court being dressed down by a judge. He isn't the only one who can't
handle being shown to be in the wrong and has taken it too far.
--
Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud
Paul Cummins
2017-07-27 12:53:00 UTC
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Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Roger Hayter
And I do resent pompous twats who can barely speak English
calling *me*
Post by Roger Hayter
an idiot.
Oh dear, turning to fowl language hardly shows your command of
English, nor that you can conduct yourself in a civil manner.
Reay jus proving the point...
Post by Roger Hayter
He isn't the only one who can't
handle being shown to be in the wrong and has taken it too far.
Pot-kettle inversion error again?
--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
Free 40 satoshi/min bitcoin mining
https://btcprominer.life/260604
Custos Custodum
2017-07-27 10:11:42 UTC
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Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Custos Custodum
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 21:16:02 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
It is "antennas" for the things connected to radios and "antennae" for
things connected to insects and arthopods even in the UK, not just in the
US, according to Collins English Dictionary.
Try a dictionary for grownups such as the OED and not one
targetted at disuptive children.
antenna, n.
View as: Outline |Full entryKeywords: On |Off
Quotations: Show all |Hide all
Pronunciation: Brit. /an't?n?/, U.S. /æn't?n?/
Inflections: Pl. antennae, (esp. in sense 4) antennas.
Origin: A borrowing from Latin. Etymons: Latin antenna, antemna,
Italian antenna.
Etymology: < classical Latin antenna, earlier antemna... (Show More)
4. A wire, rod, or other structure by which airborne radio waves are
transmitted or received, usually as part of a radio or television
transmission or receiving system; = aerial n. 3.
1902˜2013(Show quotations)
Interpreting that, it does bear out Gareth's theory that antennae is the
original plural but says that antennas is also used "especially" with
radio aerials. So the conclusion I draw is that both are correct but
that antennas is growing in popularity.
Like disc/disk and programme/program, it's a useful distinction that
apparently goes over the heads of the Luddites among us.
j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
2017-07-26 21:02:13 UTC
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Drove onto the field on Tuesday and was dismayed to
see a big banner marked Tomlinson, which portended
a bum job, but it turned out to be a scorcher being
a fence judge at the Dauntsey horse trials.
Taking my cue from the coupling loop that feeds a
mag loop antenna, and sitting pretty much under
the 400kV pylon line, I wondered about the possibility
of using a loop to couple into the electricity grid and
so giving the equivalent of a Beverage at 137kHz?
In most places using someone else's property without permission is concidered
a bad thing to do.
How do you prevent your transmissions from passing through the
airspace of the countless millions whose permission you have not sought?
A very different thing than "using a loop to couple into the electricity grid".
Pretty much the same; using others' property to radiate.
Not at all.
Well, we've both made our positions clear and there is no common
ground between us. Let's leave it there.
Yeah, right, using my own antennas on my own land is just the same as
going onto the utility easment and setting up equipment to use the utilities
equipment.
ITYM, "antennae"
It is "antennas" for the things connected to radios and "antennae" for
things connected to insects and arthopods even in the UK, not just in the
US, according to Collins English Dictionary.
Try a dictionary for grownups such as the OED and not one
targetted at disuptive children.
Try growing up and joining the 21st Century.
--
Jim Pennino
Jeefaw K. Effkay
2017-07-26 21:47:53 UTC
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Try a dictionary for grownups such as the OED and not one
targetted at disuptive children.
In which dictionary did you find "disuptive"?
Michael Black
2017-07-26 21:14:40 UTC
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Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Drove onto the field on Tuesday and was dismayed to
see a big banner marked Tomlinson, which portended
a bum job, but it turned out to be a scorcher being
a fence judge at the Dauntsey horse trials.
Taking my cue from the coupling loop that feeds a
mag loop antenna, and sitting pretty much under
the 400kV pylon line, I wondered about the possibility
of using a loop to couple into the electricity grid and
so giving the equivalent of a Beverage at 137kHz?
In most places using someone else's property without permission is concidered
a bad thing to do.
How do you prevent your transmissions from passing through the
airspace of the countless millions whose permission you have not sought?
A very different thing than "using a loop to couple into the electricity grid".
Pretty much the same; using others' property to radiate.
Not at all.
Well, we've both made our positions clear and there is no common
ground between us. Let's leave it there.
Yeah, right, using my own antennas on my own land is just the same as
going onto the utility easment and setting up equipment to use the utilities
equipment.
ITYM, "antennae"
It is "antennas" for the things connected to radios and "antennae" for
things connected to insects and arthopods even in the UK, not just in the
US, according to Collins English Dictionary.
Arthur Collins was in the dictionary business besides making radios?

Michael
Ian Jackson
2017-07-26 18:38:05 UTC
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
No he doesn't.
--
Ian
Gareth's Downstairs Computer
2017-07-26 20:17:56 UTC
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Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
No he doesn't.
Read the title thread to which you are both contributing.
rickman
2017-07-26 23:59:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
No he doesn't.
Read the title thread to which you are both contributing.
Does your post belong in an entomology group?
--
Rick C
Roger Hayter
2017-07-27 00:12:22 UTC
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Post by rickman
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
No he doesn't.
Read the title thread to which you are both contributing.
Does your post belong in an entomology group?
It would be equally at home in a technical history group. And even
here, if the OP were a teensy bit less confrontational.
--
Roger Hayter
Gareth's Downstairs Computer
2017-07-27 10:28:29 UTC
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Post by rickman
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
No he doesn't.
Read the title thread to which you are both contributing.
Does your post belong in an entomology group?
I refer you to Aharoni's work at Imperial College in the 1940s.

It was antennae then, in Brit.

It can only have changed through the pig-ignorance of Yanks
and of Brits not paying attention in school.
Jeefaw K. Effkay
2017-07-27 16:58:02 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
I refer you to Aharoni's work at Imperial College in the 1940s.
It was antennae then, in Brit.
Arahoni was German.
Michael Black
2017-07-27 13:59:53 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by rickman
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
No he doesn't.
Read the title thread to which you are both contributing.
Does your post belong in an entomology group?
I just realized this whole debate is moot.

He's not going to build more than one 137KHz antenna, not unless he has a
very large farm, so the subject header could have been "Full wave antenna
on 137kHz?"

Michael
Brian Reay
2017-07-26 20:30:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
No he doesn't.
Have you noticed how the village idiot has ignored his glaring technical
error? V^2/R !
Roger Hayter
2017-07-27 18:15:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
No he doesn't.
Have you noticed how the village idiot has ignored his glaring technical
error? V^2/R !
Quite watt is your problem with V^2/R? You have twice claimed it is
evidence of idiocy, but using a 400 ohm resistor to draw 400 MegaWatts
from a 400kV line seems perfectly reasonable to me. FSVO reasonable.
--
Roger Hayter
Brian Reay
2017-07-27 18:33:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
No he doesn't.
Have you noticed how the village idiot has ignored his glaring technical
error? V^2/R !
Quite watt is your problem with V^2/R? You have twice claimed it is
evidence of idiocy, but using a 400 ohm resistor to draw 400 MegaWatts
from a 400kV line seems perfectly reasonable to me. FSVO reasonable.
Really? So, Power Gen would be 'happy' to install such a resistor,
ignore the waste of power, not to mention the practical issue of
procuring a non-inductive resistor able to dissipate said power.

You've set a whole new standard of technical idiocy Roger, surpassing
Evans 'Big K', motion without power, and polarised resistor nonsense.

Even Evans had the sense to see he'd overlooked the problem and is
trying to divert attention from his faux pas by dragging up his old
chestnut of antennae vs antennas, which was settled long ago.
Jeefaw K. Effkay
2017-07-26 21:45:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
Pond life have antennae. Radio amateurs have antennas.

Are you pond life, Beanie?
FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
2017-07-27 00:03:51 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Jeefaw K. Effkay
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
ITYM, "antennae"
Pond life have antennae. Radio amateurs have antennas.
Are you pond life, Beanie?
Objection! That question is an insult to pond life everywhere.
--
;-)
.
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
.
http://turner-smith.uk
Jeefaw K. Effkay
2017-07-25 22:24:58 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Drove onto the field on Tuesday and was dismayed to
see a big banner marked Tomlinson, which portended
a bum job, but it turned out to be a scorcher being
a fence judge at the Dauntsey horse trials.
Taking my cue from the coupling loop that feeds a
mag loop antenna, and sitting pretty much under
the 400kV pylon line, I wondered about the possibility
of using a loop to couple into the electricity grid and
so giving the equivalent of a Beverage at 137kHz?
In most places using someone else's property without permission is concidered
a bad thing to do.
How do you prevent your transmissions from passing through the
airspace of the countless millions whose permission you have not sought?
A very different thing than "using a loop to couple into the electricity grid".
Pretty much the same; using others' property to radiate.
What's radiating got to do with it? A beverage antenna is receive only.
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-07-26 04:56:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeefaw K. Effkay
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Post by Gareth's Downstairs Computer
Drove onto the field on Tuesday and was dismayed to
see a big banner marked Tomlinson, which portended
a bum job, but it turned out to be a scorcher being
a fence judge at the Dauntsey horse trials.
Taking my cue from the coupling loop that feeds a
mag loop antenna, and sitting pretty much under
the 400kV pylon line, I wondered about the possibility
of using a loop to couple into the electricity grid and
so giving the equivalent of a Beverage at 137kHz?
In most places using someone else's property without permission is concidered
a bad thing to do.
How do you prevent your transmissions from passing through the
airspace of the countless millions whose permission you have not sought?
A very different thing than "using a loop to couple into the electricity grid".
Pretty much the same; using others' property to radiate.
What's radiating got to do with it? A beverage antenna is receive only.
tee hee ...
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