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[MW1CFN] Dead bands
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MW1CFN via rec.radio.amateur.moderated Admin
2018-03-27 07:00:25 UTC
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Real-World Amateur Radio

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Dead bands

Posted: 26 Mar 2018 02:33 AM PDT
https://mw1cfnradio.blogspot.com/2018/03/dead-bands.html

Well folks, it's rarely wise to generalise about band conditions, but we
seem to have reached rock bottom these past few days.

Whilst the WPX contest provided an astoundingly high activity rate this
weekend, conditions on 14MHz remain generally pretty poor. That band takes
a long time to wake up in the morning, there is precious little indication
of long path propagation, and beyond 18MHz, there is not much reliable
activity.

Reaching the bottom. Image: Royal Observatory of Belgium.

The solar cycle is either at or very close to its minimum now, and
predicted by the Royal Observatory of Belgium to begin rising as soon as
late summer 2018. Certainly, we can expect solar activity will remain
very low until the end of 2018, at least.

I have to admit the lack of activity means I am not spending as much time
on the radio as once was the case. That 'slack' is being taken up with
tidying up developments at the 'weekend shack', and the chaos of also
trying to move house.

Global band activity at 10:30UT today. Image: DX Heat.

Turning to something other than radio is not altogether a bad thing. It
can become, and is for many of us, a bit of an obsessive habit that is
ever-present in the home. Not that it's a bad habit, but it can become
more like a lifestyle sometimes.

Still, summer is now sweeping in after the terrible winter that started
with ex-Hurricane Ophelia, and ended with two brutally cold spells of
weather following a sudden stratsopheric warming. After all that, simply
enjoying the great outdoors, with just a bit of 50MHz operating, will see
us through the last breaths of this solar minimum.
Spike
2018-03-27 08:03:06 UTC
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Post by MW1CFN via rec.radio.amateur.moderated Admin
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Dead bands
Posted: 26 Mar 2018 02:33 AM PDT
https://mw1cfnradio.blogspot.com/2018/03/dead-bands.html
Well folks, it's rarely wise to generalise about band conditions, but we
seem to have reached rock bottom these past few days.
The solar cycle is either at or very close to its minimum now, and
predicted by the Royal Observatory of Belgium to begin rising as soon as
late summer 2018.   Certainly, we can expect solar activity will remain
very low until the end of 2018, at least.
I have to admit the lack of activity means I am not spending as much
time on the radio as once was the case.
Aren't you the chap with the bloody great vertical?

Use the ground wave, man, use the ground wave. Available 24/7/365,
--
Spike

"RSGBTech is meant for everyone", or so the RSGB says. The group is
moderated 'to
ensure that the questions are on topic', but the group's own admissions
policy mention
(a pre-) 'vet', 'known', 'trouble', and 'maker', but not the vetting
policy! None of these are
'moderation' issues and none are mentioned in the RSGB's Guidelines.....
Roger Hayter
2018-03-27 10:38:08 UTC
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Post by Spike
Post by MW1CFN via rec.radio.amateur.moderated Admin
Real-World Amateur Radio
///////////////////////////////////////////
Dead bands
Posted: 26 Mar 2018 02:33 AM PDT
https://mw1cfnradio.blogspot.com/2018/03/dead-bands.html
Well folks, it's rarely wise to generalise about band conditions, but we
seem to have reached rock bottom these past few days.
The solar cycle is either at or very close to its minimum now, and
predicted by the Royal Observatory of Belgium to begin rising as soon as
late summer 2018. Certainly, we can expect solar activity will remain
very low until the end of 2018, at least.
I have to admit the lack of activity means I am not spending as much
time on the radio as once was the case.
Aren't you the chap with the bloody great vertical?
Use the ground wave, man, use the ground wave. Available 24/7/365,
Without wishing to re-raise the whole ill-tempered argument with the
idiots, how far away is the ground wave signal (or a skywave resulting
from ground wave propagation - of personal interest to me in a
hill-surrounded location) ever heard using amateur levels of power at
HF? I got the impression it was a shorter distance mode than NVIS,
with somewhat high attenuation, but no doubt you will tell me I'm wrong.
--
Roger Hayter
Stephen Thomas Troll
2018-03-27 16:40:27 UTC
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Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by MW1CFN via rec.radio.amateur.moderated Admin
Real-World Amateur Radio
///////////////////////////////////////////
Dead bands
Posted: 26 Mar 2018 02:33 AM PDT
https://mw1cfnradio.blogspot.com/2018/03/dead-bands.html
Well folks, it's rarely wise to generalise about band conditions, but
we seem to have reached rock bottom these past few days.
The solar cycle is either at or very close to its minimum now, and
predicted by the Royal Observatory of Belgium to begin rising as soon
as late summer 2018. Certainly, we can expect solar activity will
remain very low until the end of 2018, at least.
I have to admit the lack of activity means I am not spending as much
time on the radio as once was the case.
Aren't you the chap with the bloody great vertical?
Use the ground wave, man, use the ground wave. Available 24/7/365,
Without wishing to re-raise the whole ill-tempered argument with the
idiots,
Roger, off to a good (almost Evansesque) start with that one, Roger.
Post by Roger Hayter
how far away is the ground wave signal (or a skywave resulting
from ground wave propagation - of personal interest to me in a
hill-surrounded location) ever heard using amateur levels of power at
HF? I got the impression it was a shorter distance mode than NVIS,
with somewhat high attenuation, but no doubt you will tell me I'm wrong.
Roger, for shame, Roger, getting an old man to do your googling for you,
Roger.


Roger, Thanks, Roger.
Roger Hayter
2018-03-27 17:43:08 UTC
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Post by Stephen Thomas Troll
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by MW1CFN via rec.radio.amateur.moderated Admin
Real-World Amateur Radio
///////////////////////////////////////////
Dead bands
Posted: 26 Mar 2018 02:33 AM PDT
https://mw1cfnradio.blogspot.com/2018/03/dead-bands.html
Well folks, it's rarely wise to generalise about band conditions, but
we seem to have reached rock bottom these past few days.
The solar cycle is either at or very close to its minimum now, and
predicted by the Royal Observatory of Belgium to begin rising as soon
as late summer 2018. Certainly, we can expect solar activity will
remain very low until the end of 2018, at least.
I have to admit the lack of activity means I am not spending as much
time on the radio as once was the case.
Aren't you the chap with the bloody great vertical?
Use the ground wave, man, use the ground wave. Available 24/7/365,
Without wishing to re-raise the whole ill-tempered argument with the
idiots,
Roger, off to a good (almost Evansesque) start with that one, Roger.
Parrotting slogans does get tedious.
Post by Stephen Thomas Troll
Post by Roger Hayter
how far away is the ground wave signal (or a skywave resulting
from ground wave propagation - of personal interest to me in a
hill-surrounded location) ever heard using amateur levels of power at
HF? I got the impression it was a shorter distance mode than NVIS,
with somewhat high attenuation, but no doubt you will tell me I'm wrong.
Roger, for shame, Roger, getting an old man to do your googling for you,
Roger.
Roger, Thanks, Roger.
There do seem to be different opinions on this issue. I know what
Spike's is, I am interested whether other people have succeeded with
low angle HF propoagation with hills in the way. Theory is a bit
inconclusive.
--
Roger Hayter
Stephen Thomas Troll
2018-03-30 19:22:39 UTC
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Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Stephen Thomas Troll
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by MW1CFN via rec.radio.amateur.moderated Admin
Real-World Amateur Radio
///////////////////////////////////////////
Dead bands
Posted: 26 Mar 2018 02:33 AM PDT
https://mw1cfnradio.blogspot.com/2018/03/dead-bands.html
Well folks, it's rarely wise to generalise about band conditions, but
we seem to have reached rock bottom these past few days.
The solar cycle is either at or very close to its minimum now, and
predicted by the Royal Observatory of Belgium to begin rising as soon
as late summer 2018. Certainly, we can expect solar activity will
remain very low until the end of 2018, at least.
I have to admit the lack of activity means I am not spending as much
time on the radio as once was the case.
Aren't you the chap with the bloody great vertical?
Use the ground wave, man, use the ground wave. Available 24/7/365,
Without wishing to re-raise the whole ill-tempered argument with the
idiots,
Roger, off to a good (almost Evansesque) start with that one, Roger.
Parrotting slogans does get tedious.
Yes, I know; an indignant response, not originating abuse.
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Stephen Thomas Troll
Post by Roger Hayter
how far away is the ground wave signal (or a skywave resulting
from ground wave propagation - of personal interest to me in a
hill-surrounded location) ever heard using amateur levels of power at
HF? I got the impression it was a shorter distance mode than NVIS,
with somewhat high attenuation, but no doubt you will tell me I'm wrong.
Roger, for shame, Roger, getting an old man to do your googling for you,
Roger.
Roger, Thanks, Roger.
There do seem to be different opinions on this issue. I know what
Spike's is, I am interested whether other people have succeeded with
low angle HF propoagation with hills in the way. Theory is a bit
inconclusive.
Perhaps you could suck it and see?
Stephen Thomas Cole
2018-03-30 21:21:59 UTC
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Post by Stephen Thomas Troll
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Stephen Thomas Troll
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by MW1CFN via rec.radio.amateur.moderated Admin
Real-World Amateur Radio
///////////////////////////////////////////
Dead bands
Posted: 26 Mar 2018 02:33 AM PDT
https://mw1cfnradio.blogspot.com/2018/03/dead-bands.html
Well folks, it's rarely wise to generalise about band conditions, but
we seem to have reached rock bottom these past few days.
The solar cycle is either at or very close to its minimum now, and
predicted by the Royal Observatory of Belgium to begin rising as soon
as late summer 2018. Certainly, we can expect solar activity will
remain very low until the end of 2018, at least.
I have to admit the lack of activity means I am not spending as much
time on the radio as once was the case.
Aren't you the chap with the bloody great vertical?
Use the ground wave, man, use the ground wave. Available 24/7/365,
Without wishing to re-raise the whole ill-tempered argument with the
idiots,
Roger, off to a good (almost Evansesque) start with that one, Roger.
Parrotting slogans does get tedious.
Yes, I know; an indignant response, not originating abuse.
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Stephen Thomas Troll
Post by Roger Hayter
how far away is the ground wave signal (or a skywave resulting
from ground wave propagation - of personal interest to me in a
hill-surrounded location) ever heard using amateur levels of power at
HF? I got the impression it was a shorter distance mode than NVIS,
with somewhat high attenuation, but no doubt you will tell me I'm wrong.
Roger, for shame, Roger, getting an old man to do your googling for you,
Roger.
Roger, Thanks, Roger.
There do seem to be different opinions on this issue. I know what
Spike's is, I am interested whether other people have succeeded with
low angle HF propoagation with hills in the way. Theory is a bit
inconclusive.
Perhaps you could suck it and see?
#LemonParty
--
STC / M0TEY /
http://twitter.com/ukradioamateur
mm0fmf
2018-03-27 18:08:26 UTC
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Post by Stephen Thomas Troll
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by MW1CFN via rec.radio.amateur.moderated Admin
Real-World Amateur Radio
///////////////////////////////////////////
Dead bands
Posted: 26 Mar 2018 02:33 AM PDT
https://mw1cfnradio.blogspot.com/2018/03/dead-bands.html
Well folks, it's rarely wise to generalise about band conditions, but
we seem to have reached rock bottom these past few days.
The solar cycle is either at or very close to its minimum now, and
predicted by the Royal Observatory of Belgium to begin rising as soon
as late summer 2018. Certainly, we can expect solar activity will
remain very low until the end of 2018, at least.
I have to admit the lack of activity means I am not spending as much
time on the radio as once was the case.
Aren't you the chap with the bloody great vertical?
Use the ground wave, man, use the ground wave. Available 24/7/365,
Without wishing to re-raise the whole ill-tempered argument with the
idiots,
Roger, off to a good (almost Evansesque) start with that one, Roger.
Post by Roger Hayter
how far away is the ground wave signal (or a skywave resulting
from ground wave propagation - of personal interest to me in a
hill-surrounded location) ever heard using amateur levels of power at
HF? I got the impression it was a shorter distance mode than NVIS,
with somewhat high attenuation, but no doubt you will tell me I'm wrong.
Roger, for shame, Roger, getting an old man to do your googling for you,
Roger.
Roger, Thanks, Roger.
Roger, for once, is actually on the money. The OP is talking about long
range propagation on the higher HF bands and Spuke, the scrotum-necked
old twat, starts on about ground wave, which isn't going to be much good
for long distance on 20m.

But our Spuke's carefully edited the bit about 20m and above out of the
quote otherwise his ground waving goading would look rather stupid.

Trolling. Pure and simple.
Stephen Thomas Troll
2018-03-27 18:35:53 UTC
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Post by mm0fmf
Post by Stephen Thomas Troll
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by MW1CFN via rec.radio.amateur.moderated Admin
Real-World Amateur Radio
///////////////////////////////////////////
Dead bands
Posted: 26 Mar 2018 02:33 AM PDT
https://mw1cfnradio.blogspot.com/2018/03/dead-bands.html
Well folks, it's rarely wise to generalise about band conditions,
but we seem to have reached rock bottom these past few days.
The solar cycle is either at or very close to its minimum now, and
predicted by the Royal Observatory of Belgium to begin rising as
soon as late summer 2018. Certainly, we can expect solar activity
will remain very low until the end of 2018, at least.
I have to admit the lack of activity means I am not spending as much
time on the radio as once was the case.
Aren't you the chap with the bloody great vertical?
Use the ground wave, man, use the ground wave. Available 24/7/365,
Without wishing to re-raise the whole ill-tempered argument with the
idiots,
Roger, off to a good (almost Evansesque) start with that one, Roger.
Post by Roger Hayter
how far away is the ground wave signal (or a skywave resulting from
ground wave propagation - of personal interest to me in a
hill-surrounded location) ever heard using amateur levels of power at
HF? I got the impression it was a shorter distance mode than NVIS,
with somewhat high attenuation, but no doubt you will tell me I'm wrong.
Roger, for shame, Roger, getting an old man to do your googling for you,
Roger.
Roger, Thanks, Roger.
Roger, for once, is actually on the money. The OP is talking about long
range propagation on the higher HF bands and Spuke, the scrotum-necked
old twat, starts on about ground wave, which isn't going to be much good
for long distance on 20m.
This is the guy that Burt thinks is great because he knows about his
local ground conductivity - he lives on Parys mountain! There's not a lot
of moss on Parys because of the copper deposits quite near the surface.


Andy, roger's post still looks like Burt grooming, Andy.
Post by mm0fmf
But our Spuke's carefully edited the bit about 20m and above out of the
quote otherwise his ground waving goading would look rather stupid.
Got the Panix stuff KFed here, so didn't see the OP.
Post by mm0fmf
Trolling. Pure and simple.
Fat-arsed grandstanding, I reckon.
Spike
2018-03-28 08:31:02 UTC
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Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by MW1CFN via rec.radio.amateur.moderated Admin
Real-World Amateur Radio
///////////////////////////////////////////
Dead bands
Posted: 26 Mar 2018 02:33 AM PDT
https://mw1cfnradio.blogspot.com/2018/03/dead-bands.html
Well folks, it's rarely wise to generalise about band conditions, but we
seem to have reached rock bottom these past few days.
The solar cycle is either at or very close to its minimum now, and
predicted by the Royal Observatory of Belgium to begin rising as soon as
late summer 2018. Certainly, we can expect solar activity will remain
very low until the end of 2018, at least.
I have to admit the lack of activity means I am not spending as much
time on the radio as once was the case.
Aren't you the chap with the bloody great vertical?
Use the ground wave, man, use the ground wave. Available 24/7/365,
Without wishing to re-raise the whole ill-tempered argument with the
idiots, how far away is the ground wave signal (or a skywave resulting
from ground wave propagation - of personal interest to me in a
hill-surrounded location) ever heard using amateur levels of power at
HF? I got the impression it was a shorter distance mode than NVIS,
with somewhat high attenuation, but no doubt you will tell me I'm wrong.
Have a look at this 1984(?) paper on this very subject. which
concentrates on finding an empirical solution to a potential problem
regarding 25/7/365 comms over distances of up to 90 km in mountainous
conditions. The frequency band seems to have been chosen by the the
physical size of the antenna that could be transported, and was settled
on to be 20 - 30 MHz. which does not normally spring to mind as a band
suitable for those conditions. S/N ratios are mentioned in the elevation
plots. The paper goes on to discuss frequency-hopping and also mentions
data recovery as a function of baud rates but without disclosing which
sideband was used on the FT757.

There is an interesting diagram shown early on in the paper which will
be of direct interest to you, depicting the various waves and how they
interact with the terrain. In your case, these would seem to be the
space wave, comprising the direct and reflected ray combining at a ridge
and being diffracted into the space beyond, and the surface wave which
as you know follows the ground contours. So, you have two mechanisms
available for filling in what might otherwise be described as the shadow
region behind your line of hills.

Perhaps you might like to do a QRZ.com search for stations located
within a 90 km radius from you, there might be more than you expect -
although to judge by the widespread lack of knowledge of this aspect of
Amateur Radio resulting in an arm-waving 'the bands are dead so there's
no-one to talk to' approach that spurred this thread, they may have all
gone down the pub.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/39d9/c4f58d33a96052790e1f3e8fd43283080ecd.pdf
--
Spike

"RSGBTech is meant for everyone", or so the RSGB says. The group is
moderated 'to
ensure that the questions are on topic', but the group's own admissions
policy mention
(a pre-) 'vet', 'known', 'trouble', and 'maker', but not the vetting
policy! None of these are
'moderation' issues and none are mentioned in the RSGB's Guidelines.....
Roger Hayter
2018-03-28 09:37:20 UTC
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Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Without wishing to re-raise the whole ill-tempered argument with the
idiots, how far away is the ground wave signal (or a skywave resulting
from ground wave propagation - of personal interest to me in a
hill-surrounded location) ever heard using amateur levels of power at
HF? I got the impression it was a shorter distance mode than NVIS,
with somewhat high attenuation, but no doubt you will tell me I'm wrong.
Have a look at this 1984(?) paper on this very subject. which
concentrates on finding an empirical solution to a potential problem
regarding 25/7/365 comms over distances of up to 90 km in mountainous
conditions. The frequency band seems to have been chosen by the the
physical size of the antenna that could be transported, and was settled
on to be 20 - 30 MHz. which does not normally spring to mind as a band
suitable for those conditions. S/N ratios are mentioned in the elevation
plots. The paper goes on to discuss frequency-hopping and also mentions
data recovery as a function of baud rates but without disclosing which
sideband was used on the FT757.
snip

Thanks, that looks interesting.
--
Roger Hayter
Trailer Trash ...
2018-03-28 10:34:02 UTC
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Post by Spike
plots. The paper goes on to discuss frequency-hopping and also mentions
data recovery as a function of baud rates but without disclosing which
sideband was used on the FT757.
.....

nice burn ....tee hee
Paul Cummins
2018-03-28 12:30:00 UTC
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Post by Spike
Have a look at this 1984(?) paper on this very subject. which
concentrates on finding an empirical solution to a potential
problem regarding 25/7/365 comms over distances of up to 90 km in
mountainous conditions. The frequency band seems to have been
chosen by the the physical size of the antenna that could be
transported, and was settled on to be 20 - 30 MHz. which does not
normally spring to mind as a band suitable for those conditions.
S/N ratios are mentioned in the elevation plots. The paper goes on
to discuss frequency-hopping and also mentions data recovery as a
function of baud rates but without disclosing which sideband was
used on the FT757.
NWH Raynet have an event called "the big wheel" involving separate cycle
rides of 5 miles, 15 miles, 25 miles, 39 miles and 65 miles.

This is traditionally done using a cross-band Talkthrough relay on a big
hill outside Basingstoke, with local units on 70cm FM (including Control)
and distant units on 2m FM.

During one of the events some years ago, as Control had an FT-8900 as did
I, we did some testing on 6m and 10m without talkthrough, and also did
some tests involving using 10m as the talkthrough frequency TO control,
with 2m throughout from a different and more distant relay location.

The results were surprisingly promising - the entire route could be
covered point to point on 10m. Unfortunately, 10m is not a very popular
band, due to it being so close to 11m and "real hams" don't use that band,
apparently; the equipment is also quite expensive for what it is, and
adding 10m to an existing 2/70 Mobile setup is not insignificant, not
least the size of the antenna.
--
Are you an Inadequate Kentish Defective?
Do you need help shuffling off your mortal coil?
http://www.dignitas.ch might be willing to help.
Don't delay, call them today - trade in on Smart Car offered.
Spike
2018-03-29 10:12:50 UTC
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Post by Paul Cummins
Post by Spike
Have a look at this 1984(?) paper on this very subject. which
concentrates on finding an empirical solution to a potential
problem regarding 25/7/365 comms over distances of up to 90 km in
mountainous conditions. The frequency band seems to have been
chosen by the the physical size of the antenna that could be
transported, and was settled on to be 20 - 30 MHz. which does not
normally spring to mind as a band suitable for those conditions.
S/N ratios are mentioned in the elevation plots. The paper goes on
to discuss frequency-hopping and also mentions data recovery as a
function of baud rates but without disclosing which sideband was
used on the FT757.
NWH Raynet have an event called "the big wheel" involving separate cycle
rides of 5 miles, 15 miles, 25 miles, 39 miles and 65 miles.
This is traditionally done using a cross-band Talkthrough relay on a big
hill outside Basingstoke, with local units on 70cm FM (including Control)
and distant units on 2m FM.
During one of the events some years ago, as Control had an FT-8900 as did
I, we did some testing on 6m and 10m without talkthrough, and also did
some tests involving using 10m as the talkthrough frequency TO control,
with 2m throughout from a different and more distant relay location.
The results were surprisingly promising - the entire route could be
covered point to point on 10m. Unfortunately, 10m is not a very popular
band, due to it being so close to 11m and "real hams" don't use that band,
apparently; the equipment is also quite expensive for what it is, and
adding 10m to an existing 2/70 Mobile setup is not insignificant, not
least the size of the antenna.
I think I've mentioned before a mobile contact on 10m over what proved
to be a 37 mile path over flat agricultural land, but this paper goes
much further than that single finding in showing what can be done with
HFGW - much like your experiences mentioned above. I guess there's at
least several hundred Radio Amateurs within say a 50km radius of one's
location, but on HF most of these will be using horizontal antennas that
are useless for this application - and when one tries to point out the
virtues of a vertical the old wile's tales then to be trotted out. Hence
when the sky-wave disappears it's a case of 'There's no one to work!'
when in fact a nice quiet band emerges that's ideal for 'local'
chatting. But for most Amateurs the word 'local' engages a rigidity of
thinking and it's VHF for that application.

Many years ago a friend and I started up on 10m using quarter-wave
verticals, as a way of chatting in the evening after the band had
closed. We were 7 miles apart with a ridge between us, so not line of
sight. Once we got the antennas optimised we were20-30 dB over 9 and
could back the RF gain off to have essentially noise-free contacts. It
was notable that on not a few occasions stations in the nearer European
countries would call in, having been tuning around more in hope than
expectation at finding activity, and we had some good contacts that way.

There's certainly much to explore and enjoy on HFGW.
--
Spike

"RSGBTech is meant for everyone", or so the RSGB says. The group is
moderated 'to
ensure that the questions are on topic', but the group's own admissions
policy mention
(a pre-) 'vet', 'known', 'trouble', and 'maker', but not the vetting
policy! None of these are
'moderation' issues and none are mentioned in the RSGB's Guidelines.....
Paul Cummins
2018-03-29 10:48:00 UTC
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Post by Spike
Many years ago a friend and I started up on 10m using quarter-wave
verticals, as a way of chatting in the evening after the band had
closed. We were 7 miles apart with a ridge between us, so not line
of sight. Once we got the antennas optimised we were20-30 dB over 9
and could back the RF gain off to have essentially noise-free
contacts.
Essentially I had the same on 11m between Camberley and Guildford back in
the 80's and 90's. I used a loaded 5/8 wave, my friend in Guildford a
loaded 1/4 wave, and we were always better than S9 to each other. No-one
was prepared to believe we were 12 miles apart, with a ridge of hills
between us.
--
Are you an Inadequate Kentish Defective?
Do you need help shuffling off your mortal coil?
http://www.dignitas.ch might be willing to help.
Don't delay, call them today - trade in on Smart Car offered.
Stephen Thomas Troll
2018-03-28 19:27:02 UTC
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Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by MW1CFN via rec.radio.amateur.moderated Admin
Real-World Amateur Radio
///////////////////////////////////////////
Dead bands
Posted: 26 Mar 2018 02:33 AM PDT
https://mw1cfnradio.blogspot.com/2018/03/dead-bands.html
Well folks, it's rarely wise to generalise about band conditions, but
we seem to have reached rock bottom these past few days.
The solar cycle is either at or very close to its minimum now, and
predicted by the Royal Observatory of Belgium to begin rising as soon
as late summer 2018. Certainly, we can expect solar activity will
remain very low until the end of 2018, at least.
I have to admit the lack of activity means I am not spending as much
time on the radio as once was the case.
Aren't you the chap with the bloody great vertical?
Use the ground wave, man, use the ground wave. Available 24/7/365,
Without wishing to re-raise the whole ill-tempered argument with the
idiots, how far away is the ground wave signal (or a skywave resulting
from ground wave propagation - of personal interest to me in a
hill-surrounded location) ever heard using amateur levels of power at
HF? I got the impression it was a shorter distance mode than NVIS,
with somewhat high attenuation, but no doubt you will tell me I'm wrong.
Have a look at this 1984(?) paper on this very subject. which
concentrates on finding an empirical solution to a potential problem
regarding 25/7/365 comms over distances of up to 90 km in mountainous
conditions. The frequency band seems to have been chosen by the the
physical size of the antenna that could be transported, and was settled
on to be 20 - 30 MHz. which does not normally spring to mind as a band
suitable for those conditions. S/N ratios are mentioned in the elevation
plots. The paper goes on to discuss frequency-hopping and also mentions
data recovery as a function of baud rates but without disclosing which
sideband was used on the FT757.
There is an interesting diagram shown early on in the paper which will
be of direct interest to you, depicting the various waves and how they
interact with the terrain. In your case, these would seem to be the
space wave, comprising the direct and reflected ray combining at a ridge
and being diffracted into the space beyond, and the surface wave which
as you know follows the ground contours. So, you have two mechanisms
available for filling in what might otherwise be described as the shadow
region behind your line of hills.
Perhaps you might like to do a QRZ.com search for stations located
within a 90 km radius from you, there might be more than you expect -
although to judge by the widespread lack of knowledge of this aspect of
Amateur Radio resulting in an arm-waving 'the bands are dead so there's
no-one to talk to' approach that spurred this thread, they may have all
gone down the pub.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/39d9/
c4f58d33a96052790e1f3e8fd43283080ecd.pdf


Burt, good googling, Burt. Burt, nice flourish of spite with the 757
sideband thing, Burt. Burt, sadly, Burt, it's still a crap answer to the
original post, Burt. Burt, admirable arm-waving, Burt.


Burt, Thanks, Burt.
mm0fmf
2018-03-28 22:58:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Spike
Post by Spike
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by MW1CFN via rec.radio.amateur.moderated Admin
Real-World Amateur Radio
///////////////////////////////////////////
Dead bands
Posted: 26 Mar 2018 02:33 AM PDT
https://mw1cfnradio.blogspot.com/2018/03/dead-bands.html
Well folks, it's rarely wise to generalise about band conditions, but
we seem to have reached rock bottom these past few days.
The solar cycle is either at or very close to its minimum now, and
predicted by the Royal Observatory of Belgium to begin rising as soon
as late summer 2018. Certainly, we can expect solar activity will
remain very low until the end of 2018, at least.
I have to admit the lack of activity means I am not spending as much
time on the radio as once was the case.
Aren't you the chap with the bloody great vertical?
Use the ground wave, man, use the ground wave. Available 24/7/365,
Without wishing to re-raise the whole ill-tempered argument with the
idiots, how far away is the ground wave signal (or a skywave resulting
from ground wave propagation - of personal interest to me in a
hill-surrounded location) ever heard using amateur levels of power at
HF? I got the impression it was a shorter distance mode than NVIS,
with somewhat high attenuation, but no doubt you will tell me I'm wrong.
Have a look at this 1984(?) paper on this very subject. which
concentrates on finding an empirical solution to a potential problem
regarding 25/7/365 comms over distances of up to 90 km in mountainous
conditions. The frequency band seems to have been chosen by the the
physical size of the antenna that could be transported, and was settled
on to be 20 - 30 MHz. which does not normally spring to mind as a band
suitable for those conditions. S/N ratios are mentioned in the elevation
plots. The paper goes on to discuss frequency-hopping and also mentions
data recovery as a function of baud rates but without disclosing which
sideband was used on the FT757.
There is an interesting diagram shown early on in the paper which will
be of direct interest to you, depicting the various waves and how they
interact with the terrain. In your case, these would seem to be the
space wave, comprising the direct and reflected ray combining at a ridge
and being diffracted into the space beyond, and the surface wave which
as you know follows the ground contours. So, you have two mechanisms
available for filling in what might otherwise be described as the shadow
region behind your line of hills.
Perhaps you might like to do a QRZ.com search for stations located
within a 90 km radius from you, there might be more than you expect -
although to judge by the widespread lack of knowledge of this aspect of
Amateur Radio resulting in an arm-waving 'the bands are dead so there's
no-one to talk to' approach that spurred this thread, they may have all
gone down the pub.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/39d9/
c4f58d33a96052790e1f3e8fd43283080ecd.pdf
Burt, good googling, Burt. Burt, nice flourish of spite with the 757
sideband thing, Burt. Burt, sadly, Burt, it's still a crap answer to the
original post, Burt. Burt, admirable arm-waving, Burt.
Burt, Thanks, Burt.
And a nice application of Preparation Hayter to sooth Burt's hurt.
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